Aww thanks. Im just trying to divert the conversation away from the main topic....just like you.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Your feeling towards bands. The covers and orignals discussion.
- Thread starter Ian the bassist
- Start date
Aww thanks. Im just trying to divert the conversation away from the main topic....just like you.
They already are. It's just that the venue is paying on behalf of the bands. Is the venue 'performing' these covers? No. The band is. Why should ASCAP collect 2x's? I would equate that as extortion! Illegal! The artists are already getting paid!
By your thinking............if I perform one of your compositions, you want me and the place I'm playing at to pay you? Not gonna happen!
That is clearly not a report that is intended for use by bands playing in bars.
When I played a theatrical concert for seven weeks at the Wilma Theatre in Philadelphia, the producers may very well have had to submit that report to ASCAP. But that form would obviously not be applicable when I walked around the corner and played a gig with my band at Chris's Jazz Cafe.
The venue is not 'performing'. They are selling liqueur. The band is the only entity profiting from their 'performance'. Sorry, I'm just not going for that! Like I said before........in a (your) perfect world............It's just not gonna happen!
You said that this happened about 18 years ago, which would have been 1992. Here's one example of a suit filed against a bar on January 3, 1992 after the bar owner refused to obtain an ASCAP license:
Link Removed
I'm sure I could find dozens if not hundreds of similar examples from that time period. This is just the first that I happened to come across.
I didn't read all 16 pages of this one, but felt inspired to relay my experiences concerning this topic...I joined an original band here in the South Bend Indiana area in 1991...Spent 14 years with that group as we refined our sound and writing, recorded one album on cassette, then the next three on CD...Played more gigs than I can ever possibly count...Everything from outdoor music festivals with thousands in attendance, to a bar gig with only 5 people in the audience not counting the girlfriends/wives and roadies...Original music in this area is a very tough sell to the crowds...If there's 50 people in the place, we might make 5-10 legitimate fans that would buy a CD...The rest ask you to play their favorite song they heard on the radio as they drove to the bar...And when I would tell tham that we don't know that one, they ask another one...Finally getting pissed at me because we do our own stuff...We never achieved the fame and fortune we all set our sights on and disbanded...I then just settled into a cover band that was decent but not great...People went friggin' nuts for less than perfect versions of their favorite songs!!..Played with that line-up for about 4 years, then got tired of the guitarist/singer's crap and the drummer and I fired him...Two years later that drummer and I hooked up with a kick ass frontman and two killer guitar players...Went with doing the cover thing, but with excellent musicians this time around, and every gig was packed, girls shaking their jiggly parts on the dance floor, and making alot more $$ playing than I ever did...Too old now to be a rock star, so having a blast doing covers, watching the pretty girls, and going home with a few extra 20's in my pocket...
Not against it and maybe you are right. But, I don't feel a responsibility to collect money for anybody else or enable a pathway so they can. But, if this becomes the prevailing attitude (and enforceable) it will signal the end of weekend live music (IMO) in bars all over the country. I realize $2.00 is not much but add that to gas money, equipment maintenance, practice time, drive time, strings, etc, etc. and now it is no longer worth it. Not at $50.00/gig (that is standard bottom where I live).
The reason I feel this argument is foolish is that relatively few people will succumb to the "pure" premise of your argument. This coming weekend , as I said, the bars will be open and people will be dancing to cover tunes that aren't being paid for. Wrong, OK, but life (the party) goes on. If the majority consents to the reality that every artist will not get every single nickel he/she should get because of happenstance and non-enforceability then so be it. Maybe that is sad but it won't change. Are you planning a "get every nickel" bus tour to change the hearts and minds of all people to think "how would the artist feel". How about adding an extra nickel to the door charge in order to involve the general public in this "financial rights" issue. This gets kind of lame don't you see?
I don't really think you can sell the argument that we should play for free or pay-to-play songs. Even you acquiesced to the unfeasibility of enforcement. There are many laws on the books that are not enforceable and are eventually done away with because of that very reason. It happens all the time with jury nullification.
I understand your "right or wrong" stance but the world will never be perfect.
Funny how these "discussions" usually end up huge and eventually locked.
Youre absolutely correct and Im not exactly sure why.
Doesn't matter. ASCAP/BMI are there to collect royalties on performances only. Not beer and vodka sales! I don't care how they collect their money (venue or band) but not from both!
Im pretty sure ASCAP only collects money from the venues, being the reason some venues will only allow original music. Venues that pay their dues can have both cover or original bands.
I know that its not literally for the booze sales but the bar is using the music to sell an experience... hence they pay the license. But what about the cover band that is making money off of it?
OK, cool, you found a court case. It didn't happen in Reno. I knew the owner well and nothing happened. He went out of business 2-3 years later. There are probably many more stories like this than actual successful ACSCAP lawsuits because it would have been futile against most small businesses.
But, thanks for the reference. Why the hell would you want to own a small business at all in this country?
Because if you have a profitable idea/product/service you can actually make some money on your own accord?
There are plenty of small business owners on this site who have actually made quite a name for themselves...
DWBass said:
No, that's not what I said. The venue, in most instances, pays the money. But the performer can take it upon themselves to submit their set list so the PRO can distribute funds accordingly. As of now, the scale used is based on radio play and album sales. How often do you hear "Mustang Sally" on the radio? How often do you hear it covered by a band?
I believe that the venue, lets say in this case a bar or a pub, also has to pay those ASCAP fees if they have a jukebox or play CDs. It covers all "performances" and public playing of ASCAP artists.
