"your" tone vs PA

[gregmon79]

I think this will be a sore/difficult subject for bassist until the end of live performance unless technology changes that. I've only been gigging on the regular for a little over 5 years now. And I can't say it's always been a struggle to get "my" tone out to the FOH becasue I didn't even really start thinking about it until I got a tube head without a DI almost a few years ago now. I will always want to be mic'd. Will that happen? 8 out of 10 times, no, it won't. As much as I want to be though, I think I have a pretty good understanding by now why they normally don't want to mic a bass cab. The more mic's you add to a stage, especially in a smaller venue, the harder it is to get everything to mix together and sound good in a PA. It's just truth. I am usually ran with a DI. On rare occasions the sound guy will mic me and DI me and mix those.

Until recently I always thought "the sound guy just needs to care or try harder".....that's really not it in most cases. Usually they do the best they can. So I have come to the realization that if I want "my" tone to come out of the PA or I want the sound guy to recognize what I have and what I want, I need to go beyond just leaving it up to him. I use a lot of dirt. Like 90% if not more. So I need to add an LPF to my setup. I have an HPF already. But there are things you can add to your signal that will help you sound the best you can and the way you want to. You just can't and or shouldn't depend on any sound guy to help YOU sound good unless you have your own sound guy and are paying him. Otherwise, you just gotta put your trust in the sound guy that's there and trust he knows the room. Because odds are, he knows it much better than you do. IME, most sound guys are good dudes trying to fight the good fight. It's actually rare I get a doucher.

 

[Al Kraft]

All that matters is what the band sounds like in the audience.

+1 X100

 

[Snowglo]

Said it many times before, but this is the reason I went the pre/power route with "sterile" cabs. The FOH get exactly what I'm hearing on stage and vise versa. Sure the tone changes a tad due to the mix and type of PA, but not enough to be a bother.

 

[ba55i5t]

I don't use effects. Most of my tone comes from where my fingers attack the string and the pickup I selected. I'd start from here to get a good tone before moving knobs around. This also ensures consistency to FOH

Cut to sound better, boost to sound different.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

Cut to sound better, boost to sound different.

That's similar my rule as well. Cut to fix things, boost to tone shape.

 

[Al Kraft]

That's similar my rule as well. Cut to fix things, boost to tone shape.

Great rule of thumb, and one that every professional sound/recording engineer I've ever worked with seems to live by. The phrase I often hear used in mixing is "I'm going to trim a little of X here to make room for Y to slot in". Rather than having everything overlap and compete for the same space on the frequency spectrum, good engineers look for ways to feature the key elements each person adds in a seamless and complementary to get the best blend. When you hear this done well it's, obvious why you can't do it yourself from on stage (except of course for your monitor mix).

 

[Meyatch]

I D.I. and use in-ear monitors with no amp. It was a little worrisome at first, but I've felt better about it once I learned to just let go, and let the soundpeople run the bass the way they want to. We also use a rotation of people that know what we are supposed to sound like. Showing up at a gig and meeting a new soundperson is pretty unlikely for us.

 

[monsterthompson]

Definitely a common question. Not much for me to say that hasn't been said before in other threads or here already.

I do find it interesting that there is an assumption that a mic will capture "your" sound. Each mic has a different profile, with various bumps and dips in EQ. Placement on the speaker (cap, crease, edge), has an effect on what the mic picks up. A mic isn't a sure-fire way to get the exact sound you hear standing next to your rig.

 

[carrythatweight]

Just like bass players, sound guys are human....which means they are all different. (I happen to be both.)

Here's where the compromise needs to come in. The physics of your bedroom and your (relatively) small amp are completely different from the physics of a huge club and huge speakers. No, not even an 8-10 or a 4-12 is "huge" compared to really large 18" cabs tuned super low and huge mid driver cabs.

Here are some truths for both sides to keep in mind.

1) The short version is that bedroom tone...."your tone"......might sound like garbage in a live mix. It should be the goal of BOTH of you to make the BAND sound great....not just the bass player.

2) It is simply not true that a "pro" sound guy or a "good" sound guy should he able to make ANY bass tone fit in a mix. Physics is an evil mistress. She don't care if you're good or not. She gone do what she gone do.

3) Yes, sound guys SHOULD (If time and equipment allow) TRY to make an effort to use most or all of what the bassist sees as his/her tone. But....

4) The BEST way is for you to set your tone, and then ASK the sound guy "Is it too boomy? You need anything?" And then the sound guy needs to go out of his way to see to it that you make the LEAST amount of adjustment to your tone that he can work with.

Hope that helps.

This is well said. I'm a pretty novice sound guy, but I am both as well, so I think we can hold a unifying perspective here. My best friend is our usual sound guy for worship, and for outside stuff. So much so that we try to take him with us wherever we play, and consider him a band member. Relationship between band and sound tech makes it easier for he/she to understand what the band wants to project, and for band to understand what he/she has the capability of doing to that vision. That said, not every venue or sound tech is going to be that way, and you sometimes have to be flexible with who you have. I like to introduce myself to the tech before the gig, and build a personal bridge, so that when crunch time comes, he/she wants to do whatever possible to give us the sound we want within reason.

 

[static0verdrive]

The only thing missing so far in this discussion is if the band wishes to be recorded - most likely that's coming out of the FOH to whatever recording device. Often what you hear from the FOH monitors is what is being recorded in that case, and so you don't want your amp pumping all bass and none in the FOH mix (and therefore recording).

 

[jcerio]

Our sound guy loves the tone from my Tone Hammer 500 DI - post EQ. He says he doesn't have to do anything to it and it sits right in the mix. I've gone out front and I have to say that I agree.

 

[morgan138]

as i have come to understand it, the general way of life for anyone going to a gig large enough to have/need PA support, typically, either mic's their set-up or, uses their DI to send signal to the front of house.
i understand, that in these situations, your amp is basically just a stage monitor for you to hear your self in the mix. at that point, isn't all of "your tone" lost? i mean if you are tweaking knobs on stage to make it sound right for you, but FOH is receiving a pre-eq signal, and then adjusting from their position, based on the sound of the room, is the PA over powering you rig? is "your" tone even relevant anymore? does your cab even matter? does your head choice even matter?

No, because of exactly what you mentioned earlier. If it's important for you to hear your sound as it comes out of your complete rig (bass, effects, amp, speakers), have the sound staff mic your cab.

It seems like this thread happens every other day or so, do we need a sticky that says something like "Disclaimer: although talkbass.com has a lot of threads about DIs and front-of-house systems, in the real world it's very common to just mic a bass rig and not make a big deal of it"?

 

[Phalex]

My sound guy is my tone. He does what works best for any given room. I give him the best signal I have, and he does what needs to happen to make the band shine.

 

[JRA]

i would agree with two fingers and monsterthompson .

your amp is basically just a stage monitor for you to hear your self in the mix. at that point, isn't all of "your tone" lost?

pretty much!

why wuld you need any larger rig than say a 200w combo (at max) that is either mic'd or DI?

you don't!

i live where i can play loudly for no reason.

that's great! but "loud" isn't necessarily the best tone for the gig!

 

[JGbassman]

All of my gigs have foh to push the bass, so my rig on stage is mostly a monitor system for me. I have a tech 21 dedicated preamp that I use specifically as a colored direct box. It gets split to the foh and to my amp. The RBI gets a little flavor of how I like my eq, but it's very much set flat with just a touch of emulated tube warmth.

My stage gear is set with a difinite brighter and midrangy sound with my hi pass set around 150hz to keep the low rumble off the stage. I used to mic my amp, but have gotten away from it these days, I just don't hear that much of a difference. If I put a mic on the system I use now, it would probably sound wonky out front. Played by itself, it doesn't sound very good, but with everything else running, it sounds ok and cuts the mix.

If I do play a small jam or a bar or something that has no bass support, I will set it up to sound good out front, which almost means cutting out more low end that you feel is necessary from stage.

At home or recording, I can dial in a nice tone, but if on stage, I tune it to work with the band and it's mix.

 

[bucephylus]

anywhoo, to my question;
as i have come to understand it, the general way of life for anyone going to a gig large enough to have/need PA support, typically, either mic's their set-up or, uses their DI to send signal to the front of house.
i understand, that in these situations, your amp is basically just a stage monitor for you to hear your self in the mix. at that point, isn't all of "your tone" lost? i mean if you are tweaking knobs on stage to make it sound right for you, but FOH is receiving a pre-eq signal, and then adjusting from their position, based on the sound of the room, is the PA over powering you rig? is "your" tone even relevant anymore? does your cab even matter? does your head choice even matter?

Good question.

First, as a performing bassist, one has to understand what is needed for the gig in question. Gigs come in all shapes and sizes. But, the one thing that is common is that the sound, feel, and musical support/role you provide needs to fit the gig. Of course, that seems obvious; but, that is an aspect that is best kept in mind when working on your tonality at home. Developing any kind of bass voice at home that fails to provide what is needed on a given gig is putting a square peg in a round hole.

So, efforts on bass voice at home are most effectively rewarded by some kind of reference to what is happening on the gig. It's perfectly ok for a player who does not intend to gig to develop "sounds" at home; because that essentially is the gig. But, if you are part of an ensemble, your mind has to be dedicated to what will make the ensemble sound best; or at least that approach will provide the best gigging/audition rewards.

Since gigs now run the gamut from old school self standing back lines to ampless IEM PA based sound, a working bassist has to cultivate a wide variety of ways to deliver the tone that the ensemble needs. It's a challenge. That's one reason for a lot of threads here on TB. The best advice I can offer is to keep your tone simple, solid, and perhaps familiar. That way you have a better chance of porting to the different platforms. If you get too esoteric, such as using particular amplifier distortion from a bass rig, that tone can be hard to recreate in an ampless situation.

Regarding the side discussion about sound people: I generally regard them just like any musician I am working with. Some of them are better than others. What I look for in sound folks I like to work with is an awareness of how mixes are constructed in studio hits and how levels need to change to reinforce the different parts. Critical listening to popular radio play tunes reveals the mix hierarchy that should be the objective. Less skilled sound people tend to project their prejudices on the mix, mostly with less than optimal results. Typical mistakes include insufficient emphasis of vocals, rhythmic back beat (snare or high hat), and bass; and over emphasis of guitar wash. Great sound people are like great musicians. I hope to work with them as often as possible. In any case, smile and look like you are having a great time. That's all most audience folks pick up on, other than vocals.

Meanwhile, have fun with the gear in the shed. Good times. And, welcome to TB.

 

[scuzzy]

All that matters is what the band sounds like in the audience.

i respect any intended hyperbole, so take with a grain of salt.

i want to sound great to the audience. i also want to have a tone I can play confidently with on stage. if i sound empty, tinny, nasally with no rumble on the stage, I play with much less confidence, regardless of what the house sounds like. to me, my stage mix is hugely important. and i understand that will likely be eq'd completely different from the FOH.

 

[eigentone]

Mic'ing your cab does give them your whole sound. They will of course adjust it as needed but at least this way they have a desired basis from which to work. Saying it doesn't mean a thing just isn't true.

Right. Micing the cab captures the instrument, effects, preamp, power section, and cab. It's all there. Using an appropriate mic always helps.

This way, the audience hears it as intended. If your intention is to have a sound "cleaner" than the amp puts out, then a direct signal from the preamp may be a better choice. Some people take direct signals even sooner in the signal chain.

If the cab/speaker/power section are important components to your tone, then you'll typically want to mic the cab.

 

[sawzalot]

In addition to playing bass, I'm also a sound engineer.

If you are relying on your amp to provide all the low end, you are almost certainly causing the sound engineer a headache for the front of house sound. There are so many reasons why--everything from the tone of your amp not mixing well with the rest of the band to not moving enough air to the delay caused by your amp being located at the back of the stage vs. the subs being located at the front of the stage to the inability to control the volume of your bass...the reasons go on and on.

That said, if you're in a small venue often you can get by with keeping it simple and using just your amp. At a larger outdoor venue you can use a larger or smaller amp, doesn't really matter--except that the louder your amp is on stage, the more problems out front you create, until you get to the REALLY large venues where the PA dwarfs anything your stage amp could produce.

As a bassist I love hearing/feeling my full rig, no doubt. But in recent years I have moved almost entirely to IEMs and I don't even bring a cabinet to most gigs any more. The simple fact is, the lower the band's overall stage volume, the better it can sound out front and I want it to sound good out front. I have a great sound coming out of my bass head's DI and good IEM's that sound awesome. Once I heard a great stereo IEM mix with my juicy bass tone and the audience mics mixed in, there was no looking back.

So IMHO, a live amp mostly is a source of problems to the sound engineer. A mic on a live amp comes with all the problems of a live amp plus putting one more open mic on stage, which is one more potential source of feedback. A DI signal taken from the right spot in the bassist's signal chain is the best solution, and a DI signal plus a quiet stage (i.e., everyone is on IEM's) is ideal.

That said being flexible is a key skill for a sound engineer and usually a good engineer can make things sound as good as they can under very adverse conditions--but I personally try to make it as easy as I can to get the band sounding good out front.

Tom

 

[PullThePlug]

I always send a post EQ signal to FOH. I'll even lie to the sound guy if necessary. Most of the time, the audio engineer can't tell the difference unless they're a musician themself.