• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass zimmermann contemporary concept of bowing technique

S

Square Bear

Jun 25, 2009
786
9
Northampton, MA
#1
so i've been working through this book for quite a while. honestly, i haven't gotten very far considering, which isn't that big a deal to me as it's exposed weaknesses in my right hand for sure and i feel that i've improved many things as a result.

i'd like to know from someone who has gone through the book or at least a lot of it - is my approach or concept off regarding what the book is really for and how to use it? it seems at face value to be a book that you work through gradually increasing the tempos one etude at a time, like simandl or something. i personally have had more success working on each section simultaneously so that i'm working on triplets and duple and 3/4 patterns and their rhythmic variations each day. i've been able to cover more ground that way too.

here's the thing - as i move through the book, i still have difficulties with the old etudes unless i pull them back out and work them up again... it's getting to the point where i'm spending way too much time on maintenance of these etudes and i'm not sure what i'm gaining from it. is the point of it all that i just need to isolate difficult bowings when i come across them in actual music? i mean, i was already doing that before i started with this book. i guess i feel like continuing through it would just give me marginally better results from a huge time investment, while i could just be working on orchestra excerpts and using zimmermann's system of isolating bowings as problems arise... anyone else have any experience with this book that would be helpful to me? the book has kicked my ass big time, which i suppose is the point.

don't get me wrong, i'm not just complaining that it's hard. i often spend 6-8 hours a day practicing... i'm not afraid of work. i'm just looking at this from a time management perspective i guess.
 
#3
You won't have ANY particular piece "ready-to-play" unless you're playing it every day. There's no need to be able to play the bowing etudes perfectly daily. If you practice correctly you'll establish mental and physical memory that will stay with you and be ready for specific perfection when needed. My advice is not to spend so much time on dry exercises like Zimmerman and work on more music. You'll have more fun and still expand your technique. If you need to isolate a bowing, use the Zimmerman technique to do so. I still write out bowing patterns for tricky licks.
As for practicing 6-8 hours a day: :)

"The right kind of practice is not a matter of hours.
"Practice should represent the utmost concentration of brain. It is
better to play with concentration for two hours than to practice eight
without. I should say that four hours would be a good maximum practice
time--I never ask more of my pupils--and that during each minute of the
time the brain be as active as the fingers."

-Leopold Auer
 
#4
i know what you're saying about that kind of daily time practicing. i just practice like that because i'm obsessive. today for example (which is pretty extreme even for me), i did five 90 minute sessions spread out through the day followed by half an hour of scales (my ears felt really open in the evening after all that playing so i wanted to take advantage of it and work on scales). i'm trying to get in shape for grad school which starts soon, and i recently took some time off playing because i was moving across the country. i time myself so i don't go over 90 minutes at a time, and it is pretty much all focused effort. that is the best way for me to work, i've seen better results from this kind of a routine than anything else i've tried. anyways, my hands feel so loose and limber after today it's really not a concern of mine, i just have a lot of material to get through right now. thanks for your comments, i think i'll put the zimmermann away for now and spend that time on excerpts. or goofing off with my dog. or learning russian.
 
#6
Good stuff here, Great quote by Auer Neil G !

Look I just (past 4 years) have been going through this book as well . I worked on it off and on over these last years with varying degrees of intensity. I found that certain passages were becomming easier and less taxing on my right arm the more I focused on the work in the book. It usually occured in the months after I started working on them again. I also had the same experience of having to "work up" the etudes. It got easier as time went along and my nervous system began to re-route my patterns.

Anyway, Whille rehearsing Beethoven 9 I had an interesting and psoitive experience.
There is a passage near the end. 4th mvt, There are two sets of emaj, e min arpeggios. Fast and over three strings. These two passages were always difficult for me in any tempo.
All of a sudden, I just played them , no hassle, easy, nailed it. I recognised the pattern of string crossing from the zimmerman book, sort of matrix style, in slow motion.
It works if you work it.
 
#8
thanks g-force. that is encouraging to know. i think it's been a good thing to work on over the summer as i'm in transition but i'm starting to hit a wall with it right now. i'll pull it out again when i feel i need it. another really good bowing book i've found is abe luboff's sevcik for bass (abe was my old teacher's first teacher). it's the theme and variations adapted to bass and is actually a lot of fun to work through because of the way it's presented. check it out if you can find it.
 
#9
G-force said:
Good stuff here, Great quote by Auer Neil G !

Look I just (past 4 years) have been going through this book as well . I worked on it off and on over these last years with varying degrees of intensity. I found that certain passages were becomming easier and less taxing on my right arm the more I focused on the work in the book. It usually occured in the months after I started working on them again. I also had the same experience of having to "work up" the etudes. It got easier as time went along and my nervous system began to re-route my patterns.

Anyway, Whille rehearsing Beethoven 9 I had an interesting and psoitive experience.
There is a passage near the end. 4th mvt, There are two sets of emaj, e min arpeggios. Fast and over three strings. These two passages were always difficult for me in any tempo.
All of a sudden, I just played them , no hassle, easy, nailed it. I recognised the pattern of string crossing from the zimmerman book, sort of matrix style, in slow motion.
It works if you work it.
Click to expand...

One of the ideas behind the Zimmerman bowing exercises is that you can take any orchestral excerpt and play just the open strings that the notes lie on and by playing everything as just the open strings you can make it very much easier. Then it just becomes a matter of putting the fingers where they go. Its all about isolating the right hand, and working the minutia of string crossings and such.
 
#10
Square Bear said:
i know what you're saying about that kind of daily time practicing. i just practice like that because i'm obsessive. today for example (which is pretty extreme even for me), i did five 90 minute sessions spread out through the day followed by half an hour of scales (my ears felt really open in the evening after all that playing so i wanted to take advantage of it and work on scales). i'm trying to get in shape for grad school which starts soon, and i recently took some time off playing because i was moving across the country. i time myself so i don't go over 90 minutes at a time, and it is pretty much all focused effort. that is the best way for me to work, i've seen better results from this kind of a routine than anything else i've tried.
Click to expand...

+1

I don't like it when people argue about "Oh your practicing too much...etc" Then they always say, "its about quality, not quantity...." Sure, I agree, quality is more important than quantity, but who says you cant have 8 hours of quality practice, as long as its broken up into shorter sessions, like 90 min at a time? That way you have 90 min of quality and efficient practice, take a break, then go back for another 90 min of quality practice, etc. I do the same, except for one hour at a time for 6. Also, if you are a music student in college, this kind of practice is necessary...
 
#11
From the vantage point of a reformed obsessive practicer, a couple points for square bear and the other practice room hogs out there:


90 minutes at a time is overdoing it if you really are hitting hard. 45- 60 is really the most your body can consistently take, which is why many union contracts forbid playing much more without break.

This sort of intense practice requires ALOT of stretching to prevent injury. Tendonitis is the devil. Yoga and cardio will not only help save your arms, but will also make your life a happier place.

Books like Zimmerman and Sevcick can do more damage than good without the proper focus. The goal here is not to just get through the book; after nearly 20 years with Zimmerman I'm less than half way through! The goal should be to use these texts in short intervals to focus on improving the subtleties of the bow arm. I can not emphasize strongly enough that playing this stuff less than perfectly relaxed and controlled is very counterproductive.

Finally, you will hear many, many professionals screaming from the mountain top that less is more. Edgar Meyer practices 4 a day. Ray Brown advocated having the bass in your hands 40 hours a week, including gigs and rehearsals. I do not know a single full time professional who does more on a consistent basis. From member x of one of the top 3 orchestras here in the US: "I got alot more done, especially *musically,* when I relaxed and learned how to enjoy life a little more." We, as artists, are story tellers first and foremost. If your only story is the view from inside the shed, your story will be missing so many beautiful facets of the human experience.:D
 
#12
chicago, thanks for that. i'm a music student at the moment, and to be quite honest, the amount of practice i do always feels insufficient. but i see that as a blessing, it keeps me going. i don't expect to spend the rest of my life working this hard, but for now it's getting me pretty satisfying results. this morning was totally satisfying, thanks to the time i spent yesterday.

anyways, i agree that 4 hours a day would maintain technique just fine. but i'm sure edgar meyer and ray brown and all the people you've mentioned spent a lot more time while they were developing their technique. plus, i know i don't have the inherent talent these guys had, so it's an unfair comparison anyways.

i work hard much of the time, but i love doing it so it doesn't feel like work. the only time i don't love it is when i haven't been practicing enough if you get my drift. ;)

i know you guys are trying to help. i have never had tendonitis or carpal tunnel or pain for that matter and i've been working like this for a few years now. i'm on a new bass right now, so more than anything i'm trying to find the same feel on this instrument that i had on the old one. it's coming along. thanks for all the suggestions though, i definitely feel better about putting that zimmermann away for a while! good riddance!
 
#14
eloise appreciates your suggestions as well. she likes listening to me practice but likes to go for a walk even more.
 

Attachments

  • mime-attachment.jpeg
    mime-attachment.jpeg
    28.8 KB · Views: 174
#15
Dear squarebear,

Any serious player goes through these stages. For about 4 years there I was doing 10-14 hours a day including rehearsals and gigs. Speaking of which... there really is no replacement for real world experience.

From my personal vantage point, if you're putting in more than 8 hours a day on the bass all told and not seeing massive gains, it may be time to change some stuff up. Get a lesson from a different teacher. Try changing your practice routine, ie, drop the zimmerman for a few months, etc... Have you tried practicing with a pitch reference? Are you practicing entire pieces or focusing exclusively on your weaknesses? Do you tape yourself? Practice with a mirror or video camera?

I bring all this up because I can get more out of 4 a day now than I ever dreamed possible in college logging ridiculous hours. Gee it sure would have been nice to have had a girlfriend for those 4 years. It really is about consistent, quality practice much more than sheer quantity.

PS Edgar's 4 a day is far more than maintaining. He is constantly adding new rep. More than an hour a day to maintain and you're doing something very wrong.

Cheers!
 
#16
chicago, thanks for the words again. i didn't say i'm not seeing results. actually i said i'm seeing drastic results from my routine when i'm diligent with it. today i backed off and just played through things and felt really great, just as a benchmark sort of reference, then practiced a few spots and some scales. i record myself pretty frequently (video on my laptop), i use a mirror literally all the time when i'm practicing. the consistency of my bow stroke has been an issue i've been focusing on lately, but sometimes it's intonation and sometimes it's vibrato or string crossings... it's always something and i'm always looking for it. as i mentioned earlier, i just moved across the country earlier this month and am starting grad school soon. will have a completely new teacher for the next two years, and i will take a lesson with him as soon as he gets back from summer festivals. i'm just trying to get in shape for auditions and genrally hitting it hard for when the semester begins. i'm not looking for a girlfriend, i'm married actually. she's not a musician, but likes to listen to me practice (thankfully for her sake!).

i guess i wouldn't work as hard as i do if i didn't see results, and i wouldn't still be going through this kind of routine if i didn't absolutely love the process as much as the results.

i also did not mean to imply that the great players you mentioned would spend 4 hours a day to simply maintain their technique. edgar meyer's starting point every day is beyond anything i will achieve in my lifetime as a bassist. all i'm saying is that i know when i have something to work on, and that's when i try to practice, which seems to be much of the time.

really i was just asking for advice on the zimmermann bowing book from people who have used it. i'm a bit surprised at the extent to which everyone is concerned about me... i didn't mean to give the impression that i'm totally directionless and just logging arbitrary hours just for the hell of it.
 
#17
Dear bear,

I can't speak for the others but my concerns are from the perspective of someone who, based on the little I know about you, has stood in your shoes. Following a nasty bout of tendonitis my mantra became "there must be an easier way." My former stand partners who were scoring big jobs were often out of the shed hours before me, and none of them ever had problems with their hands like I did. I pray that you continue to avoid tendonitis etc... and that grad school helps you to grow into the player you'd like to be.
 
#18
I just started playing from the Zimmerman book a few weeks ago.
I like the book. I think the purpose of this book is to have your string crossings become easy. And to think about your right hand seperately.
I also like the orchestral passages.

But I also have some critical points.
1) after 20 string crossing patterns on just the D en G string you will get the idea and can also perform the rest. One is not more difficult than the other. They are essentialy all the same. You don't need tewnty pages full of different patterns for that.

2) the bowing drawings are over analytical. And on the contrary he didn't put any up and down bowing signs with the patterns that involve some legato bowing, so you have to guess what bowing he intends.

3) why are there no string crossing exersises that use all four strings, or three strings? he gives hundreds of patterns of the same two strings, why not more strings? and why so less legato bowing string crossing exercises?

4) there should be more explanation about the goal of the exercises
 
#20
BAREND:

You point out a VERY valid flaw in this outstandingly bad book.

There is no carry-over WHAT SO EVER to actually playing music.

It is in my opinion a waste of time, and an effort that could cause injury as well.

But hey-what do I know!?
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back