Zoom G11 at Winter NAMM 2020

[jimfist]

If the G11 (and the B11 when it comes out) doesn't allow parallel routing, at $799, it's going to be an opportunity missed for Zoom to successfully move its tanks onto Helix territory.

As much a fan and user of Zoom products as I am, I have to agree that they may have a real challenge on their hands with the G11. As you move UP the food chain in cost, the current market indicates that consumers in the $800+ market are much more demanding WRT available features. Parallel path signal routing is one of them, as well as other programming features (like switch assignable "Snapshots" or "Scenes", for example).

At the same time, I fully appreciate that even with the asking price for the G11, there are going to be people who perfer the simplicity of the design for hands-on operation. Time is money, and and Zoom products can usually get you up and running your custom patches quicker and easier than most (perhaps all) other multi-fx modelers, though this seems to be at the expense of higher-level programming capabilities.

I say this while I salivate at the possibility of trying out a Neural Quad Cortex, so don't mind me!

 

[primussucks9126]

Have Zoom indicated that they are using an upgraded chip set for this?

I've had the B3N and still have the B1X-4 on my board which have their latest chips and the one thing that lets them down is the digital artefacts noise which is more noticeable on some of the effects patches than others. But given the price point and versatility of the B1X-4 that's something you can comfortably think "fair enough". The Helix pedals, with their more advanced chips, don't suffer the same digital artefacts noise and given that this G11 is pitching itself squarely into Helix territory, I hope that the Zoom chips are of comparable quality.

The other feature on Helix is the ability to parallel route effects e.g. to blend in clean signal which is a must particularly with effect sims such as Rat drive that suck out low end. I manage that issue with my B1X-4 by using a Boss LS2 to allow clean blend. If the G11 (and the B11 when it comes out) doesn't allow parallel routing, at $799, it's going to be an opportunity missed for Zoom to successfully move its tanks onto Helix territory.

I felt the same way about parallel routing. Though I wonder if that's something that can be patched in with a software update. I've messed with it on the Helix, and I certainly like the idea of it. I haven't found it essential for my needs.

I'm also curious about the digital artifacts you mentioned. Any particular models you've experienced this with? I'm not saying you don't get them, but I haven't experienced anything off about any if the sounds I use on my B3n.

One area I really hope is improved on this G11 is the pitch shifting. I find all the models on the B3n to be pretty weak.

 

[Zymba]

I've never noticed any "artifacts", digital or otherwise, with the B3n.

The pitch shifting on the Zoom is weak. Line 6 has them beat to hell in that regard. In fact I preferred the old M9 to the Eventide H9 I owned.

 

[jimfist]

I've never noticed any "artifacts", digital or otherwise, with the B3n.

The pitch shifting on the Zoom is weak. Line 6 has them beat to hell in that regard. In fact I preferred the old M9 to the Eventide H9 I owned.

I find that with a lot of pitch shifters, the sound benefits immensely from a couple things: filtering a lot of high end out (post pitch shift) using an EQ or Low Pass filter (set around 2k or so), and then adding some drive distortion after that (not a lot, but look for a smooth sounding OD) which adds a bit of harmonic distortion to the pitch shift to make it sound less sterile/artificial.

 

[Al Krow]

I'm also curious about the digital artifacts you mentioned. Any particular models you've experienced this with? I'm not saying you don't get them, but I haven't experienced anything off about any if the sounds I use on my B3n.

Quite noticeable on the B1X-4 on something like this, which I use as an EQ setting for playing slap. If you strike the note, you'll hear the digital artefact noise ("DAN") in the background, and it's not something that inclusion of a noise gate can eliminate, because it is occurring during the playing of the note:

Interestingly the DAN on the above patch is much less noticeable with Dual Comp switched off, but is still there.

Must admit that I never really noticed this until another Zoom user pointed it out to me, but now that I'm listening out for it, it's definitely noticeable.

 

[primussucks9126]

Interesting. I'm gonna check that out later today!

 

[primussucks9126]

Hmmmmm. I'm not sure exactly what I'm listening for. I certainly hear a hiss, but it's nothing that seems unusual or digital to me. My bedroom is insanely noisy for some reason, so it feels like this hiss is getting boosted since the EQ at 4.5k and 10k is really high (it gets significantly quieter when I turn the EQ off). Then it's getting compressed which makes it even more noticable.

 

[Al Krow]

Yup - it's that hiss "behind" the notes and seems to me to be for exactly the reasons you've set out.

But now you've heard it, see if you notice it on any of your other Zoom patches - I'd be interested to get your second opinion on this one for sure!

 

[jimfist]

Quite noticeable on the B1X-4 on something like this, which I use as an EQ setting for playing slap. If you strike the note, you'll hear the digital artefact noise ("DAN") in the background, and it's not something that inclusion of a noise gate can eliminate, because it is occurring during the playing of the note:

View attachment 3833843

Interestingly the DAN on the above patch is much less noticeable with Dual Comp switched off, but is still there.

Must admit that I never really noticed this until another Zoom user pointed it out to me, but now that I'm listening out for it, it's definitely noticeable.

I'd love to hear a recording of the artifact noise, if you could manange one.

a couple of things: when all of these blocks are engaged, how loud does this patch compare with a bypass-through (dry) sound? It looks like a LOT of gain is being added at every stage (70 at Low EQ, 80 at Bass EQ, 75 at the Dual Comp), and especially, as @primussucks9126 mentioned, 4.5k and 10k getting a substantial 10db boost, and the high band of the Dual Comp being pumped vs. the low band.

I'll plug these settings into my B3n and reserve judgement, but on first look, I can't imagine how this combination of settings would result in anything I'd want to use for bass. Nonetheless, I'll see if my high-end challenged hearing can locate this artifact noise you speak of. I've heard this in other pedals before, years ago, but can't say it's anything that ever got my attention with my B3n or G5n, and if it were there in any significant amount it would've been a deal breaker for me.

 

[Al Krow]

I'd love to hear a recording of the artifact noise, if you could manange one.

a couple of things: when all of these blocks are engaged, how loud does this patch compare with a bypass-through (dry) sound? It looks like a LOT of gain is being added at every stage (70 at Low EQ, 80 at Bass EQ, 75 at the Dual Comp), and especially, as @primussucks9126 mentioned, 4.5k and 10k getting a substantial 10db boost, and the high band of the Dual Comp being pumped vs. the low band.

I'll plug these settings into my B3n and reserve judgement, but on first look, I can't imagine how this combination of settings would result in anything I'd want to use for bass. Nonetheless, I'll see if my high-end challenged hearing can locate this artifact noise you speak of. I've heard this in other pedals before, years ago, but can't say it's anything that ever got my attention with my B3n or G5n, and if it were there in any significant amount it would've been a deal breaker for me.

Not yet currently set up to do a recording, Jim, but on my to do list during this lockdown! I'm sure it won't take you more than a few mins to dial in those settings on a patch - and actually hearing it "in the flesh" is going to be a ton better / easier than trying to hear it on a recording via headphones i.e. effectively 3rd hand, given that it's not massively noticeable in the first place unless you're listening out for it.

It's been set up so that is should be approx the same volume as by-pass; and although the high end is getting a boost, the all important mids are being cut which compensates volume wise.

I take it you're not a slap bass player? That's what I set up this particular EQ patch up for.

 

[jimfist]

Not yet currently set up to do a recording, Jim, but on my to do list during this lockdown! I'm sure it won't take you more than a few mins to dial in those settings on a patch - and actually hearing it "in the flesh" is going to be a ton better / easier than trying to hear it on a recording via headphones i.e. effectively 3rd hand, given that it's not massively noticeable in the first place unless you're listening out for it.

It's been set up so that is should be approx the same volume as by-pass; and although the high end is getting a boost, the all important mids are being cut which compensates volume wise.

I take it you're not a slap bass player? That's what I set up this particular EQ patch up for.

Well, I do slap, but not often these days. It had occurred to me that this might be a slap bass setup. What bass are you using? Is there something specific that makes the hiss more obvious, like a string "pop"? What are your monitoring speakers?

 

[Al Krow]

Have to fess to having a variety of basses in my herd - so I'm not sure it's particularly bass related. But just playing a note, and not particularly loudly, will trigger the "DAN" on this (and other) patches.

It's perhaps worth mentioning that I have a very similar EQ & comp set up on a Helix patch and I don't get any noticeable DAN, which is why I've put this down to being Zoom related and also 'cos it's been noticed and commented upon by other Zoom users on this side of the pond.

 

[jimfist]

Have to fess to having a variety of basses in my herd - so I'm not sure it's particularly bass related. But just playing a note, and not particularly loudly, will trigger the "DAN" on this (and other) patches.

It's perhaps worth mentioning that I have a very similar EQ & comp set up on a Helix patch and I don't get any noticeable DAN, which is why I've put this down to being Zoom related and also 'cos it's been noticed and commented upon by other Zoom users on this side of the pond.

Fair enough.

 

[primussucks9126]

I'd love to hear a recording of the artifact noise, if you could manange one.

Here's a recording I just did. There's certainly noise in the signal, but again, it sounds more like normal hiss I'd associate with boosting the highs and compression, and again, I'm in an especially noisy room.

Serek Sacramento -> Zoom B3n -> Demeter VTDB-2 -> Tascam UH-7000

Recorded into Reaper with nothing done to it in post.

I think it's a nice, meaty sounding patch.

I realize we're getting away from the thread topic, but I'd like to be able to identify any potential issues with the G11 when I get it.

 

[Al Krow]

Thanks a lot for doing that. It doesn't sound particularly hissy at all through my (quite decent) headphones; in fact it sounds pretty good! I suspect the hiss / DAN will be much more noticeable through your rig than via the recording.

 

[jimfist]

I'll be weighing in later on, or hoping I have the time to do so. I have the G5n w/USB recording capabilities (and with access to the exact blocks used in the patch). We'll see what happens. I do wish that the guys who are hearing this had a recording to make it easier to identify, but I'll be listening for a sort of "breathy" noise just after the note is struck, and then for artifacts as the note decays to nothing. Let's see if my ears can spot this.

 

[primussucks9126]

Here's an example through an amp. The hiss is definitely more apparent, but I still don't notice any other type of noise (other than the clipping on the E and A strings.

Serek ->B3n -> Peavey Microbass -> Shure SM58 -> Tascam UH-7000 ->Reaper

 

[Al Krow]

Again thanks for recording that! Yes, you can hear the hiss at the start and throughout the recording other than when you very briefly deaden the strings before starting the Thin Lizzy riff (one of the longest surviving set numbers in our set ) and right at the end before you switch off the recording.

But I agree it doesn't seem to be quite the same DAN I'm getting.

This is how one of the UK basschat crowd (actually the guy who founded the site!) described it on his Zoom:

"There's noise under the notes as it decays, hardly noticeable but once you hear it it's annoying. It's almost like a 'breathing' sound and at first I thought could be noise created by the limiter but it does it when just using one of the pre-amp models. It kicks in about half a second after hitting a string and decays and comes back as the note fades until it breaks up and the note stops, at which point it sounds a bit like an aggressive noise gate would."

He actually offered to do a recording a year back, when he mentioned it - Jim's jumped back onto that thread and between us we've nudged him to do a recording which he's now kindly promised to do. Here's a link to the thread in case you're interested:

Zoom B1 Four

 

[primussucks9126]

It's a great tune! One of my all time favorite bands.

I hear the hiss throughout the entire recording. While the strings are muted, and constantly underneath my playing. I get the same hiss even when no bass is plugged in. I'll try and get down into my basement and record something since it's a little quieter.

Also, I've had the ZNR off on all of these so that the max amount if noise comes through.

I wonder how much of it is a B1 Four vs B3n thing? I'll definitely be checking out that link!

 

[Al Krow]

It's a great tune! One of my all time favorite bands.

I hear the hiss throughout the entire recording. While the strings are muted, and constantly underneath my playing. I get the same hiss even when no bass is plugged in. I'll try and get down into my basement and record something since it's a little quieter.

Also, I've had the ZNR off on all of these so that the max amount if noise comes through.

I wonder how much of it is a B1 Four vs B3n thing? I'll definitely be checking out that link!

Yeah I'm almost tempted to pick up a used B3N to find out! I used to have one, but the B1-4 has improved on a couple of the limitations of the B3N, as well as being a bunch cheaper and more compact. E.g. having separate switches for the drums and looper rather than having to set them up on an effects patch (if I remember correctly) makes them both a LOT more accessible. And having global volume and EQ controls is just great.

"I hear the hiss...While the strings are muted, and constantly underneath my playing." I think that's very much the point. The difference is that the underlying hiss disappears when the strings are fully muted. Maybe that's 'cos I have the ZNR on?

And here's one other point - is the hiss pretty much of equal volume irrespective of how hard you are playing the notes? If so, that would also seem to me to confirm it being a DAN.