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1)Dispersion 2)Efficiency 3)Size
- Thread starter LowG
- Start date
I'm still trying to get my head around how a cab's actual dispersion can extend behind it.There are other ways to achieve wide dispersion. And it can be achieved in a cab with a HF driver. And the sensitivity issue can be addressed without the need for a large box. Just saying.
People still tend to think inside the box. There are alternatives.
I am nearly 100% not getting this thread. Is this actually a bass player concern, or is their some theoretical issue I am unaware of?
I get the dispersive concerns due to interference for specific placement of two cabs. Yes, I understand interference physics. In fact, I've done calculations for a range of frequencies with various cab separations, and confirmed that the high end of the bass response can suffer some spatial variation at distances out from the cabs. But, that effect is most noticeable for frequencies at or above 1 kHz. Ok, if your gig is hifi jazz with lots of solo bass space, then it might be a concern. But the heart of the instrument's tone in the lower mids doesn't tend to disperse in any way you can calculate or discriminate no matter how bad the cab placement. So, for typical club gigs playing top 40 stuff, I don't see the issue. Furthermore, I can't understand the concern with single source cabs at all. Anyhow, I certainly can't hear an issue with any single cab I have ever owned. A good quality well made cab, amp, and bass should be able to get most jobs done.
Maybe I am missing something.
YMMV
I get the dispersive concerns due to interference for specific placement of two cabs. Yes, I understand interference physics. In fact, I've done calculations for a range of frequencies with various cab separations, and confirmed that the high end of the bass response can suffer some spatial variation at distances out from the cabs. But, that effect is most noticeable for frequencies at or above 1 kHz. Ok, if your gig is hifi jazz with lots of solo bass space, then it might be a concern. But the heart of the instrument's tone in the lower mids doesn't tend to disperse in any way you can calculate or discriminate no matter how bad the cab placement. So, for typical club gigs playing top 40 stuff, I don't see the issue. Furthermore, I can't understand the concern with single source cabs at all. Anyhow, I certainly can't hear an issue with any single cab I have ever owned. A good quality well made cab, amp, and bass should be able to get most jobs done.
Maybe I am missing something.
YMMV
I don't know either but yes a true vertical cabinet and smaller cone size will improve off axis response.
But with a 50 watt head nothing still really touches the sensitivity of jbl d130 or e 130. 103 db for single driver 106db for a pair. But yeah it's 15" so off axis drops above 1k.
Otherwise a custom approach would be a 2 way system using 6" or smaller speakers for high end. And instead of using high xmax speakers like fearful or whatever those 15s have sensitivity in the 96dB range. using a delta 15 pro or rare ev 15x speakers which both hit 101db. I've used 2x15 and 8x10 just never had off axis problems. otherwise a vertical 2x12 using eminence dual cone speakers the high end extends way past 6k and the secondary cone keeps off axis response to 3k and recently some fane 250 speakers were mentioned in another thread and those dual cones show amazing off axis response for a 12inch
sensitivity with 10" is garbage even a vertical 2x10 or pair of 2x10 and off axis or beaming is still around 1k.
basically a pair of vertical 2x12 might do a 50watt justice. using eminence beta12lta or fane 250 much higher sensitivity and the dual cones will give a 6" a run for the money.no cross over no bs. Otherwise a crossfire 4x12 with same speakers. small baffle size is ideal. But nobody wants a goofy 24" or 26" tube head hanging over a goober 19" cabinet.
But with a 50 watt head nothing still really touches the sensitivity of jbl d130 or e 130. 103 db for single driver 106db for a pair. But yeah it's 15" so off axis drops above 1k.
Otherwise a custom approach would be a 2 way system using 6" or smaller speakers for high end. And instead of using high xmax speakers like fearful or whatever those 15s have sensitivity in the 96dB range. using a delta 15 pro or rare ev 15x speakers which both hit 101db. I've used 2x15 and 8x10 just never had off axis problems. otherwise a vertical 2x12 using eminence dual cone speakers the high end extends way past 6k and the secondary cone keeps off axis response to 3k and recently some fane 250 speakers were mentioned in another thread and those dual cones show amazing off axis response for a 12inch
sensitivity with 10" is garbage even a vertical 2x10 or pair of 2x10 and off axis or beaming is still around 1k.
basically a pair of vertical 2x12 might do a 50watt justice. using eminence beta12lta or fane 250 much higher sensitivity and the dual cones will give a 6" a run for the money.no cross over no bs. Otherwise a crossfire 4x12 with same speakers. small baffle size is ideal. But nobody wants a goofy 24" or 26" tube head hanging over a goober 19" cabinet.
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When you think you're thinking outside the box, how can you be sure you're not just thinking inside a different box? It's not likely no one's ever come up with the idea before.
It absolutely is a concern for many bassists and guitarists.
I've done a lot of gigs in small venues where I can't physically get away from my cabinet. Like Blues Alley in DC. Sometimes my heels are practically against the front of the cab. A typical single cab, even a 410 isn't high enough to have a tweeter aimed towards me unless it's tilted or on a stand. So with everything firing forward (horizontally) at below waist height, the usual solution is to turn up or put the cab on a stand (never cared for that option either). Not exactly the best solution... you're probably hammering someone in the audience while you and the people beside you don't get the brunt of the sound coming from your cab any more than you do. They say you're loud, you don't hear it.
This has nothing to do with solo bass IMO IME, it's about having a better vantage point for your rig. And carrying two cabs around so one of them is closer to earshot holds no appeal for me. I know lots of folks in the same boat.
hth
All things considered, that solution is definitely outside the norm. Ask for a cab recommendation and for the most part you get the same types of cabs that have been around for a long time. Some here even consider enclosure design to be a done deal, anything worth doing was already designed by the 1970's. I've seen people actually proclaim that here
. There still aren't many really new twists out there and that external wave guide is one of them. Hence outside the box IMO. Has anyone else ever come up with it and offered it commercially for this application? In forty years of really paying attention to this and high end audio in general, I'm not aware of it.So... did someone else come up with this idea before and execute it?
I'M REFERRING TO THE DEEFLEXX DEFLECTION GUIDE.
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I'll be glad to explain it if you're referring to our BBC cabs. How much do you understand of the basic design?
IF SO I'M ANSWERING A DIRECT QUESTION.
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There may be a reason why they haven't. I hope it's a great commercial success for you.All things considered, that solution is definitely outside the norm. Ask for a cab recommendation and for the most part you get the same types of cabs that have been around for a long time. Some here even consider enclosure design to be a done deal, anything worth doing was already designed by the 1970's. I've seen people actually proclaim that here
So... did someone else come up with this idea before and execute it?
OP writing:
Dispersion: I've read a lot on the board about various new-design cabs regarding their "superior dispersion" and am intrigued by the idea. You say that the meat of the sound is in the low-mids, and you're right that that part of the sound spreads around pretty well regardless. But the I find the clarity of the sound does indeed get lost off axis for the cabs I've tried. I'm just playing rock, jazz, and fusion, but that high-mid/treble "bite" to the start of a note is useful for me (and others in the band) to hear. You're probably right that for typical top-40 music in clubs it really doesn't matter, that music relies (IMO) on the "meat" of the bass more than the "bite".
Efficiency: The efficiency concern is just a thing for me since I happen to have a head I like that's only 50 watts. I'm not married to the idea that I HAVE to use this amp for every gig in the world (I have a few higher powered heads available) but since I had that amp in mind I thought I'd ask. You never know unless you look, right?
Size: Again, this is not something I'm married to either but I thought I should include it as the last (least important) concern. After all, I can use a traditional 2x15" stack and pretty much do what I want to do. So if people just suggested things that are the same size as what I have then there would have to be a fantastically astronomical sound improvement to make me want to buy it.
Thanks again everyone, I'm surprised that this thread has attracted so many comments.
No questions here about efficiency and size. I mean there are inefficient cabs that do sound good, for example sealed cabs; but, those are both legit factors that are discussed at length in this forum.
The dispersion topic is one that gets discussed a lot; but, in actual calculation and practice you can notice it with two cabs placed non-optimally, but it won't generally detract from the performance. That's all I was saying. Single cabs don't generally suffer the effects most folks attribute to dispersion.
But, Brad; the issue you are describing is not what 99% of the dispersion discussions on here are about. I understand and appreciate what you are describing. No doubt there are situations where the projection solid angle can be an important factor. That is different than interference related combing dispersion issues. Projection apertures, either horizontal or vertical don't get discussed much. They probably matter a lot more from a monitoring standpoint than what the crowd hears; but still a valid factor.
BTW, I'm with Munji; in that I always try to get my cab at least partially behind the drummer. I always have a hard time getting to the gig where the drummer got there early and set up their kit way in the corner where there is no way to get behind them. That's NOT good gigs.
Maybe I used the wrong term? I think of dispersion as "how wide the sound projects" (especially in higher frequencies of course). So if it has "wide dispersion" the frequency balance you hear changes relatively little as you scan/walk/listen from side to side or up and down.
But now I see the words interference and combing. I consider that a separate issue and, as noted, only a concern with multiple drivers. interference and comb filtering is not what I'm concerned with in the OP. I'm not a speaker-science guy - did I use the term wrong?
But now I see the words interference and combing. I consider that a separate issue and, as noted, only a concern with multiple drivers. interference and comb filtering is not what I'm concerned with in the OP. I'm not a speaker-science guy - did I use the term wrong?
No big deal. Yes and no. We do get caught up in semantics a bit here. In truth, the term dispersion generally refers to all of the above. It's just that TB chatter over the years has tended to apply that term to the interference combing effects. Projection solid angles are surely also part of dispersing the sound. But, that topic is not as common a discussion point. As Brad correctly points out, there are stages and gig situations where that can matter. But, that tends to be not a mainstream design concern. Otherwise we would see mainstream speaker construction which would use design elements like down and up firing drivers. There have been cabs like that through the years. IIRC, Flite made such a cab at one point specifically designed for the situation Brad describes. That is a legit, but somewhat niche cab need. Most of the gigs most of us play are served by the 180(-) degree front firing configuration. IME/YMMV
I will also add that it may be true that the role and therefore design of the bass cab are actively evolving. In addition to the designs Brad is working with, the Berg HG-310 has drivers in front and back of the cab; and that cab is getting a lot of love from the bass folks using it, even though it was initially designed for acoustic guitars and such.
So, it's an active topic. Hard to say where it will take us.
So, it's an active topic. Hard to say where it will take us.
What you quoted by me was a comment about an other company's product, a wave guide that could set in front of any cab to change its dispersion.
We seem to be talking about two different things.
I HAVE NO COMMERCIAL INTERESTS IN DEEFLEXX.
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