1)Dispersion 2)Efficiency 3)Size

[Gizmot]

Good point. I do know that I'm trying to thread a tight needle with this, which is why I posted in the first place - if it was easy it would be easy!

When all is said and done I could drop my sensitivity requirement and use a different amp for playing live in this group, but if I don't have to that would be cool. I have a huge Bag End S15B-D 2x15 cab (I think that's the model - it's the bigger enclosure) that I can use at home with the low power head and it takes care of business. But, as is being pointed out, the cab is very large to get that sensitivity. I really don't have to play very loud with the low power head, but I want to squeeze what I can out if possible.

I can also be pretty flexible with the size - I'm not looking for the smallest, just reasonable. However, if the size/weight starts approaching what I already use then other attributes would have to be that much more superior to convince that the change is needed. After all, I'm generally ok with the 2 Yorkville 15" cabs. I probably could simply spin the bottom one towards the drummer (as was suggested in an earlier post). Sure, it's a lot to haul, but I don't gig that much.

I will probably not utilize a tweeter, but some of these systems with arrays of smaller mid drivers seem attractive.

Thanks again everyone, a very enlightening thread (for me, anyway )

When you stack HF drivers vertically, you narrow the sound in the vertical plane. The good thing about that is that you minimize reflections off the floor. The bad thing is that it doesn't sound as open. The vertical pattern control is created by the comb filtering (destructive interference) of the stacked drivers.

 

[MarkA]

I'm in a medium-term hunt for a cab that fits the title's rank attributes. I do not care about it handling high-power. I do not care about "hi-fi". I do not care about extended deep-deep bass response. I don't even really care about low price. All of those things are fine if they exist in the cab, but they are not needs.

I want it first and foremost to have better than normal dispersion. I've read about this quality in the more modern cabs and am very attracted to getting good dispersion in my next cab. I'm sick of the drummer (and me, often) not being able to hear my tone clearly on tight stages.

Next I'd like it to have better than normal efficiency. I'd like to be able to use a ~50 watt tube amp at moderate volume with it. For reference, I can happily currently use two 15" Yorkville cabs in this scenario.

Third in importance is size. I'm not in search of super-tiny, but I do want it to be smaller and lighter than my set of two 15" cabs. But I repeat - it does not have to be tiny feather, just reasonable!

Tone goal and setting: Small clubs with a medium volume fusion trio. Any bigger venues would get PA assistance. Tone will be a mid-focused sound with frequent overdrive.

The cabs currently on my radar are the MAS 112 and the Barefaced Two10. Anything else I should know about?

Of all the cabs I've played, the MAS/Big E cabs have the best horizontal dispersion -- and the most consistent sound across the stage and out in the house -- by a fair margin. Of those, the "horizontal" cabs (the 46 and the Flex) seem to me to edge out my "vertical" MAS 112 in horizontal dispersion, but I can hear myself better with the 112 if I have to stand right on top of it -- I imagine because it's a taller cab and has upward-firing mid drivers.

For efficiency and mid-focus, I'd suggest a BFM Jack 112. I can't speak for it's dispersion on tight stages.
Jack
A Greenboy fEARful 12/6 or fEARless F112 or F210 are also good options.

I haven't played the Jacks, but I did try out a stack of Omni 10s (predecessors to the Jacks) some years back. They were, for my taste, lacking in low end (you would need to EQ it back in, which would eat up amp power and push the cabs harder), but if you're looking for a clean, mid-forward tone and don't want or need a lot of deep lows they could fit the bill. I found them to be very efficient (if you're not boosting a lot of lows) and to have good dispersion. I figure the Jack 12s would be a step up.

For your goals, you will not meet them with a 50 watt tube amp. That will always be your weak link. To get the kind of efficiency that you are looking for, you will have to go with a bigger cab.

I already essentially meet my goals with a 50 watt tube amp!!! If I use a 2x15" stack of "traditional" Yorkville cabs I'm fine for volume. I'm just wondering what cabs might have better dispersion and size/ weight.

I'm not sure that I'd be comfortable playing many gigs with 50 Watts, but I realize that a lot depends on your situation.

Mike, to my knowledge, has made two "low power friendly" versions of the 112: one that uses a stock 3012 HO woofer (not sure if he still makes that) and another that uses a custom Eminence driver (the one that Greg mentioned playing at the GTG). I've played the custom driver version next to my 18Sound version and it is indeed a few db more efficient and more mid-forward. I have not played the 3012 HO version, but I seem to recall Mike saying that it might be a hair more efficient, yet, than the custom driver version, with a less mid-forward presentation, less bass extension, and lower power handling (not an issue with your 50 Watt head).

I don't know if the 112 will be more efficient than your two 15s -- that will depend on the 15s in question. The MAS website makes mention of running it with a 50 Watt tube head. Still, I would ask Mike his thoughts.

 

[Munjibunga]

If your cab isn't behind the drummer, no amount of dispersion is going to help him hear it. Cabs don't project 180 degrees.

 

[John D Harris]

Good point. I do know that I'm trying to thread a tight needle with this, which is why I posted in the first place - if it was easy it would be easy!

When all is said and done I could drop my sensitivity requirement and use a different amp for playing live in this group, but if I don't have to that would be cool. I have a huge Bag End S15B-D 2x15 cab (I think that's the model - it's the bigger enclosure) that I can use at home with the low power head and it takes care of business. But, as is being pointed out, the cab is very large to get that sensitivity. I really don't have to play very loud with the low power head, but I want to squeeze what I can out if possible.

I can also be pretty flexible with the size - I'm not looking for the smallest, just reasonable. However, if the size/weight starts approaching what I already use then other attributes would have to be that much more superior to convince that the change is needed. After all, I'm generally ok with the 2 Yorkville 15" cabs. I probably could simply spin the bottom one towards the drummer (as was suggested in an earlier post). Sure, it's a lot to haul, but I don't gig that much.

I will probably not utilize a tweeter, but some of these systems with arrays of smaller mid drivers seem attractive.

Thanks again everyone, a very enlightening thread (for me, anyway )

I'm thinking the S15B-D size gives more low end extension.
The relatively small S15-D are also Very efficient, which is why I suggested a pair of those (IIRC, they're 44 lbs a piece).
The rear port directly behind the driver gives more midrange out the backside (better dispersion).

 

[DukeLeJeune]

If your cab isn't behind the drummer, no amount of dispersion is going to help him hear it. Cabs don't project 180 degrees.

Well... there are a few that kinda do.

Some of my two-way cabs get mids out the back via the rear-facing ports, and then an optional rear-firing tweeter fills in the top end. But the mids and highs behind the cab are not as loud as out front.

That being said, I believe every word posted here about the dispersion of Mike Arnopol's cabs.

 

[Snaxster]

I'm in a medium-term hunt for a cab that fits the title's rank attributes. I do not care about it handling high-power. I do not care about "hi-fi". I do not care about extended deep-deep bass response. I don't even really care about low price. All of those things are fine if they exist in the cab, but they are not needs.

I want it first and foremost to have better than normal dispersion. I've read about this quality in the more modern cabs and am very attracted to getting good dispersion in my next cab. I'm sick of the drummer (and me, often) not being able to hear my tone clearly on tight stages.

Next I'd like it to have better than normal efficiency. I'd like to be able to use a ~50 watt tube amp at moderate volume with it. For reference, I can happily currently use two 15" Yorkville cabs in this scenario.

Third in importance is size. I'm not in search of super-tiny, but I do want it to be smaller and lighter than my set of two 15" cabs. But I repeat - it does not have to be tiny feather, just reasonable!

Tone goal and setting: Small clubs with a medium volume fusion trio. Any bigger venues would get PA assistance. Tone will be a mid-focused sound with frequent overdrive.

The cabs currently on my radar are the MAS 112 and the Barefaced Two10. Anything else I should know about?

Hello. Though my use case is quite different from yours, I share your interest in efficiency and suitability to use with a 'low for bass guitar' output tube head (to me, 3 to 18 watts is low output). Basically I'm looking for a hi-fi cabinet whose real character is that of a rock cabinet; a big-and-sweet-sounding, smallish box that is fast and can hit hard, doesn't need a lot of power to sound good, and will feel to me like true monaural audio played through nice open air headphones or large Advent stereo speakers (but is much faster than Advents, of course).

It looks as if you got some good suggestions so far. You should be able to find your cabinet solution in only a try or two.

I gotta add to the MAS 112 love. I tried one Sunday at a local bass hang where Mike brought a bunch of his cabs. I've tried some of his cabs before, and this one was my favorite. Great dispersion, efficient, plenty of lows if needed, but it sounded like a rock cab. And it was a breeze to pick up by the handles.

Thank you very much, Greg. I could not have asked for a better firsthand account of the MAS-112.

Of all the cabs I've played, the MAS/Big E cabs have the best horizontal dispersion -- and the most consistent sound across the stage and out in the house -- by a fair margin. Of those, the "horizontal" cabs (the 46 and the Flex) seem to me to edge out my "vertical" MAS 112 in horizontal dispersion, but I can hear myself better with the 112 if I have to stand right on top of it -- I imagine because it's a taller cab and has upward-firing mid drivers.

I haven't played the Jacks, but I did try out a stack of Omni 10s (predecessors to the Jacks) some years back. They were, for my taste, lacking in low end (you would need to EQ it back in, which would eat up amp power and push the cabs harder), but if you're looking for a clean, mid-forward tone and don't want or need a lot of deep lows they could fit the bill. I found them to be very efficient (if you're not boosting a lot of lows) and to have good dispersion. I figure the Jack 12s would be a step up.

I'm not sure that I'd be comfortable playing many gigs with 50 Watts, but I realize that a lot depends on your situation.

Mike, to my knowledge, has made two "low power friendly" versions of the 112: one that uses a stock 3012 HO woofer (not sure if he still makes that) and another that uses a custom Eminence driver (the one that Greg mentioned playing at the GTG). I've played the custom driver version next to my 18Sound version and it is indeed a few db more efficient and more mid-forward. I have not played the 3012 HO version, but I seem to recall Mike saying that it might be a hair more efficient, yet, than the custom driver version, with a less mid-forward presentation, less bass extension, and lower power handling (not an issue with your 50 Watt head).

I don't know if the 112 will be more efficient than your two 15s -- that will depend on the 15s in question. The MAS website makes mention of running it with a 50 Watt tube head. Still, I would ask Mike his thoughts.

Thank you for that, Mark. When I spoke with Mike a few days ago, he mentioned you by your TB ID, as a case study related to my use case. I called him to inquire about a MAS-112. We spoke about his cabinets and background, Anthony Jackson, bass pickups, and other stuff. I liked Mike, and that he was motivated to become a cabinet designer by being a player first.

Soon I will order a MAS-112 with the custom Eminence woofer, a switchable B&C tweeter, and without casters. Though other cabinets in the genre may follow for me, I predict that this one will be pivotal, as slowly I catch up with the state of modern bass guitar amplification after years away.

 

[Downunderwonder]

If your cab isn't behind the drummer, no amount of dispersion is going to help him hear it. Cabs don't project 180 degrees.

True. Still, I have never had a drummer complain he couldn't hear what note I was playing, while I have had that complaint myself!

 

[Munjibunga]

True. Still, I have never had a drummer complain he couldn't hear what note I was playing, while I have had that complaint myself!

I generally set my cab far enough back that the drummer can hear it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I'm not arguing for or against any brand or product because I've never used or heard some of these being advocated.

All I'm suggesting is to pay attention to the laws of physics in thinking about the prerequisites you want this new speaker system to do.

If you want wide dispersion, that means that you want small diameter drivers - nothing bigger than a 10. Its simple physics that the larger the speaker, the more directional it is.

You also have to avoid HF driver / horns and piezo HF devices because they're more directional than a dome tweeter. Or - you could avoid systems that don't use an HF driver if you can find one that delivers the sound you want.

The sensitivity issue is important because its hard to find systems that will work well with lower powered amps that use small diameter drivers that aren't in large boxes.

So - good luck in your quest.

There are other ways to achieve wide dispersion. And it can be achieved in a cab with a HF driver. And the sensitivity issue can be addressed without the need for a large box. Just saying.


People still tend to think inside the box. There are alternatives.

THIS IS NOT SPECIFIC TO OUR CABS.

 

[Brad Johnson]

A friend of mine plays in a band who use these and reckons they are superb
Invalid Link Removed

Definitely outside the box thinking. Bravo.

 

[Gizmot]

Unless a cab uses a dome tweeter, it won't have more dispersion. Small format horn / drivers or piezos are much more directional.

 

[10cc]

Gonna do a cab round up on the 13th. Should be fun as hell. Hopefully these prospects will all be present:
BBC Tank
Hathor
MAS112
F212
F210

 

[LowG]

That's cool! Please give a report after, if not this thread I'll look for it elsewhere.

 

[popgadget]

A 5 or 6" mid driver will help dispersion a lot. I wouldn't be so quick to rule out a mid.
Crossed over properly you will generally get smoother response as well.

 

[MarkA]

Cool. Which Hathor (12, 15, 18?) and which version of the MAS 112? And might I humbly suggest hooking everything up at once? Stacked vertically, please.

Gonna do a cab round up on the 13th. Should be fun as hell. Hopefully these prospects will all be present:
BBC Tank
Hathor
MAS112
F212
F210

 

[Brad Johnson]

Unless a cab uses a dome tweeter, it won't have more dispersion. Small format horn / drivers or piezos are much more directional.

Interesting. Does where it's aimed make a difference?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Gonna do a cab round up on the 13th. Should be fun as hell. Hopefully these prospects will all be present:
BBC Tank
Hathor
MAS112
F212
F210

Cool. Where are you and which Tank model?

 

[Steve Dallman]

I run two cabinets I built using modified EV TL plans...a 12/6/1 top cabinet, and a 12 lower, crossed at 800Hz for the 12's and mid, and 3k for the tweeter.

I used inexpensive, 350 watt MCM drivers, an Eminence 6.5" midrange and Foster/Fostex horn.

My rig's footprint is just over 13X13." The low end exeeds all my other bass cabinets, including 18's, 15's and 4X10's.

I am a happy man. The cabinets are tall enough to hear well when stacked, and although they are heavy, they are compact and easy to handle.

I am happier with this rig than any I've run over the decades, including my SVT and complicated bi-amp rigs.

 

[BadExample]

I run two cabinets I built using modified EV TL plans.

Do you recall which model the EV TL is? I'd like to look up the plans, if for nothing else, curiosity.

 

[10cc]

Cool. Where are you and which Tank model?

Above Atlanta closer to Athens. Which ever model it was you built for either driver800 or acoustic356.