1)Dispersion 2)Efficiency 3)Size

[Brad Johnson]

But, Brad; the issue you are describing is not what 99% of the dispersion discussions on here are about. I understand and appreciate what you are describing. No doubt there are situations where the projection solid angle can be an important factor. That is different than interference related combing dispersion issues. Projection apertures, either horizontal or vertical don't get discussed much. They probably matter a lot more from a monitoring standpoint than what the crowd hears; but still a valid factor.

BTW, I'm with Munji; in that I always try to get my cab at least partially behind the drummer. I always have a hard time getting to the gig where the drummer got there early and set up their kit way in the corner where there is no way to get behind them. That's NOT good gigs.

But, Brad; the issue you are describing is not what 99% of the dispersion discussions on here are about. I understand and appreciate what you are describing. No doubt there are situations where the projection solid angle can be an important factor. That is different than interference related combing dispersion issues. Projection apertures, either horizontal or vertical don't get discussed much. They probably matter a lot more from a monitoring standpoint than what the crowd hears; but still a valid factor.

BTW, I'm with Munji; in that I always try to get my cab at least partially behind the drummer. I always have a hard time getting to the gig where the drummer got there early and set up their kit way in the corner where there is no way to get behind them. That's NOT good gigs.

Actually I think it is what the OP was asking about:

"I want it first and foremost to have better than normal dispersion. I've read about this quality in the more modern cabs and am very attracted to getting good dispersion in my next cab. I'm sick of the drummer (and me, often) not being able to hear my tone clearly on tight stages".

I think I understand his questions. But sometimes these discussions go off into the weeds. What he's talking about are exactly the core issues we sought to address with our products. Because as gigging bassists we were having similar issues. Particularly the side fill issue, where the drummer can't hear your cab unless it's pointed towards him. The conventional approach was to have your cab lined up so the front is behind the the rear plane of the drummer. The problem with that is in many venues the best you can hope for is to sit beside the drummer and angle your cab.

This is how a TBer used his cab... it's almost parallel with the front of the kickdrum yet the drummer had no problem hearing him. That is not the traditional placement that "normal" cabs require. The two side openings seem to work.

The primary issue was the age old problem of the back of your lower legs catching the brunt of your sound on smaller stages. So you'd typically increase the volume to compensate for what you weren't getting. With the extended coverage you likely won't have to play as loud with our cabs... while having the ability to bang it out if you're feeling frisky

If I'm wrong and he's really talking about interference related combing dispersion issues and such, I missed it. We're not running into those problem with our cabinets so far and we do check with our customers for real world feedback.

I DON'T KNOW IF THIS POST IS IN VIOLATION OF CUP POLICY. IF SO, MY APOLOGIES.

 

[bucephylus]

Actually I think it is what the OP was asking about:

"I want it first and foremost to have better than normal dispersion. I've read about this quality in the more modern cabs and am very attracted to getting good dispersion in my next cab. I'm sick of the drummer (and me, often) not being able to hear my tone clearly on tight stages".

I think I understand his questions. But sometimes these discussions go off into the weeds. What he's talking about are exactly the core issues we sought to address with our products. Because as gigging bassists we were having similar issues. Particularly the side fill issue, where the drummer can't hear your cab unless it's pointed towards him. The conventional approach was to have your cab lined up so the front is behind the the rear plane of the drummer. The problem with that is in many venues the best you can hope for is to sit beside the drummer and angle your cab.

If I'm wrong and he's really talking about interference related combing dispersion issues and such, I missed it. We're not running into those problem with our cabinets so far and we do check with our customers for real world feedback.

Nope, you were correct.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I use an Ampeg PF-50t with my BoomBassCab 1215 Tank and it is amazing. It's about the size of a single 15" cab, but so much more sound. The 50W amp works well and if I need more then it still handles the 800W or 1000W amps.

[This invalid link has been removed]

This also addresses one of the OP's needs. Rich owns our largest cab (which is still relatively small) and has gigged with it with his 50w Ampeg. Here's a pic we recently received from another customer regarding size. I think most will recognize the cab on the right. The other cab is a Tank 1215 like Rich's. I even did a double take when I saw this:

 

[LowG]

Yes - that first photo really shows the dispersion issue well. So many stages the drummer has his/her back against the wall, and the only way to get the sound to them is spinning the cab towards them (or using monitors, which isn't usually practical in these situations (for me), or using two cabs pointed different ways, which I want to get away from if possible). But then if I point to the drummer, what of the audience and me? Even if a cab doesn't employ rear/side/down firing drivers, if it has a relatively wide "cone" of sound coming off of it I can at least split the difference and get some sound to all of us.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yes - that first photo really shows the dispersion issue well. So many stages the drummer has his/her back against the wall, and the only way to get the sound to them is spinning the cab towards them (or using monitors, which isn't usually practical in these situations (for me), or using two cabs pointed different ways, which I want to get away from if possible). But then if I point to the drummer, what of the audience and me? Even if a cab doesn't employ rear/side/down firing drivers, if it has a relatively wide "cone" of sound coming off of it I can at least split the difference and get some sound to all of us.

Great summation of the problem. Now imagine not being able to get away from your sound vs. working to keep everyone happy.

 

[Downunderwonder]

But, Brad; the issue you are describing is not what 99% of the dispersion discussions on here are about. I understand and appreciate what you are describing. No doubt there are situations where the projection solid angle can be an important factor. That is different than interference related combing dispersion issues. Projection apertures, either horizontal or vertical don't get discussed much. They probably matter a lot more from a monitoring standpoint than what the crowd hears; but still a valid factor.

BTW, I'm with Munji; in that I always try to get my cab at least partially behind the drummer. I always have a hard time getting to the gig where the drummer got there early and set up their kit way in the corner where there is no way to get behind them. That's NOT good gigs.

combing wrecks dispersion. Above the beam frequency it is combed, below it is extremely focused. Side by side tens woof like eighteens off axis.

 

[bucephylus]

Yes - that first photo really shows the dispersion issue well. So many stages the drummer has his/her back against the wall, and the only way to get the sound to them is spinning the cab towards them (or using monitors, which isn't usually practical in these situations (for me), or using two cabs pointed different ways, which I want to get away from if possible). But then if I point to the drummer, what of the audience and me? Even if a cab doesn't employ rear/side/down firing drivers, if it has a relatively wide "cone" of sound coming off of it I can at least split the difference and get some sound to all of us.

Drummers setting up as close as possible to back walls and corners is a major issue and sure sign of inexperience. In some cases, as Brad points out, the stages simply allow no other option, and then you are certainly stuck with a bad situation. More often than not, however, the drummer is getting to the gig early and somehow thinks they should be way in the back; which is 100% completely wrong, if space allows otherwise. Drummers should be mid stage so that the amplification can be placed as much as possible behind them. I don't know where this thing that drummers need to be as far back as possible came from; but, it is totally 100% wrong, and when space allows, we all need to be guiding them to set up mid stage.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Drummers setting up as close as possible to back walls and corners is a major issue and sure sign of inexperience. In some cases, as Brad points out, the stages simply allow no other option, and then you are certainly stuck with a bad situation. More often than not, however, the drummer is getting to the gig early and somehow thinks they should be way in the back; which is 100% completely wrong, if space allows otherwise. Drummers should be mid stage so that the amplification can be placed as much as possible behind them. I don't know where this thing that drummers need to be as far back as possible came from; but, it is totally 100% wrong, and when space allows, we all need to be guiding them to set up mid stage.

I'm had my share of drummers who don't seem to think through the whole gigging thing too much. A few years ago I arrived at a trio hit, the drummer, a young guy I'd never played with before, had left me a space about a foot wide between him and the wall. When I mentioned the problem to him, he said he wasn't going to move his drums, why don't I set up up front. Way to get things off on the wrong foot. I set up in the front and figured I'd make the best out of an unnecessarily adverse situation.

This was also the first time I'd played with the keyboardist who was the leader. It was supposed to be a smooth jazz gig but we immediately hit it off and it went right into fusion. The drummer was having a great time keeping with up the twists and turns we spontaneously pulled out of our butts. The first break comes and now the drummer wants to be my new BFF. He's asking for facebook and contact info. I just smiled and kept it moving. It still amazes me how anyone could go to a gig and not have the least concern for the ergonomics and comfort level of the other musicians. I saw him a few months later and he was bothered that the keyboardist had fired him. Cue the fake empathy... it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

With one of my main bands we now have a running joke between myself and the drummer. If he arrives before me he always shades towards stage left, even though the keyboard player and I are on that side and he leaves a ton of room for the guitarist to the right. I ask him to move and he does... no explanation as to why he continues to do it.


Don't get me wrong, I love drummers, nothing quite like clicking with the right one. I just don't get some of them.

 

[bucephylus]

Don't get me wrong, I love drummers, nothing quite like clicking with the right one. I just don't get some of them.

Oh, man, Brad; I am SO with you on that post. I'm afraid in old age, I've probably gotten somewhat blunt with telling the drummers what I expect now. That probably makes me a crank. So be it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Oh, man, Brad; I am SO with you on that post. I'm afraid in old age, I've probably gotten somewhat blunt with telling the drummers what I expect now. That probably makes me a crank. So be it.

I still go for diplomacy first, next option is to grin and bear it, making the best out of the situation. I don't even want to think about the third option.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Not a thing.

How much would you like to know?

 

[Munjibunga]

How much would you like to know?

How you get a speaker to project behind itself.

 

[Brad Johnson]

How you get a speaker to project behind itself.

Great question. It doesn't.

We have two main speakers in our cabs, one firing forward and upwards, the second firing straight down, against the bottom of the cabinet and then exiting through three openings (left, front and right) on the lower portion of the cab. We could've made a fourth opening but found it was unnecessary.

So both speakers project forward initially and the lower speaker fires down and that goes in whatever direction it can. The bottom driver is not a sub.

 

[Passinwind]

How you get a speaker to project behind itself.

Very simply, as far as the technical aspects:

 

[MarkA]

Very simply, as far as the technical aspects:

I see two robots interrupted mid-conversation.

 

[Rick James]

So both speakers project forward initially and the lower speaker fires down and that goes in whatever direction it can. The bottom driver is not a sub.

The bottom driver may not be a sub, but mounted that way it will be band passed, so the mids aren't going to go in whatever direction they can. The lows will be omni-directional, but lows are omni-directional with any cab.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The bottom driver may not be a sub, but mounted that way it will be band passed, so the mids aren't going to go in whatever direction they can. The lows will be omni-directional, but lows are omni-directional with any cab.

Are you taking all three lower openings into consideration?

There are mids coming out of the bottom driver. Ask anyone who's gigged with one.

 

[Passinwind]

I see two robots interrupted mid-conversation.

But they sound more like Terence and Philip...

 

[ThisBass]

Dispersion wise side by side tens can be considered to act (roughly) somewhat similar like 15's.
While comb filter effect causes lobes (off axis) in horizontal plane a 15 can't generate them (exception is for partially cone resonance but that's not the point).
As there is some reduction of average SPL at mids/treble off axis the dispersion can be roughly compared with 15's but it does not mean it's really quite the same cause the mechanismen that cause reduced dispersion off axis are different.

If I had 2x210 on a tight stage I'd probably lift them both from floor side by side with some crossfired angle just to project the sound of one 210 to the drummers ears.

10's do beam the treble and mids frequency content allready a lot so I regard the benefit of skinny stacking of full range running woofers with some care rather than too optimistic.

A couple of the new cab designs show a skinny line in the middle of the front baffle loaded with multiple smallish cones, 2 way passive crossover at around 1kHz.
The alignment follos the principles of Line Array systems (coupling of multiple sources) beyond the frequency where the acoustical coupling of stacked woofers gradually ends.

Two of those cabs loaded with single 12" and mids/treble Line Array should provide way better dispersion than any skinny stacking of 10's can provide.

Personally I allready considered the option of custom made cabs that provide some enhanced Line Array design.
One cab built with rather "standard" alignment of the Line Array, the second one with an inverse "J" alignment of the mid/treble Line Array just to improve dispersion for standing very close to the stacked cabs.

Of coures those cabs can't poject mids/treble directly in an angle greater than +/- 90 degree off from on axis.

@Brad Johnson
"There are mids coming out of the bottom driver. Ask anyone who's gigged with one."

I'm not exactly sure about the way these side openings of the BBC cabinets really work.
As there is an opening to the left and the right side of the cabinet I suppose these side openings act as kind of low-mid/mid port that helps to clearly hear/identify a played note at listeners off axis position for angles greater than +/- 90 degree off from on axis.
I assume these side "ports" shouldn't be mismatched with rather standard (low response) tuning frequency of a cabinet?

 

[ThisBass]

More often than not, however, the drummer is getting to the gig early and somehow thinks they should be way in the back; which is 100% completely wrong, if space allows otherwise.

In this case I would probably think something must be wrong with my playing.
Sorry, just joking but, couldn't resist.