I could have skipped a few of the intro level classes, had my school offered more AP or college credit classes, but they didn't.
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- Thread starter DerHoggz
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I could have skipped a few of the intro level classes, had my school offered more AP or college credit classes, but they didn't.
+10,000 x infinity
This is a systemic problem that probably has as much to do with high school education as collegiate education. I go to grad school at a Tier 2 institute, if those ratings actually mean anything to anybody except elitist law and business firms that hire based upon the Cravath system.
So, it's considered a pretty solid school. As stated earlier, I can't teach courses as part of my assistanship duties, but I do come into contact with undergrads on a fairly regular basis. Professors, sadly, have to "dumb down" a lot of their material, because, frankly, many of the students couldn't handle anymore intensity. I've met some very able undergrads, but I am constantly underwhelmed by the quality of many of these students' work - even seniors. My last supervisor had to actually ask me a couple times to make the questions I was writing for quizzes much easier, and the level of question I was writing was the level of questions I was asked as an undergrad.On the other hand, most of the grad students I've met have been exceptionally bright.
There does also seem to be this idea that college should be trade school. While I think college should teach you usable skills, it's not the same thing as learning a trade. My current supervisor does sexuality and men's studies research. He's in the process of creating an LGBT minor with another one of my professors. One of my assignments was finding jobs in which an LGBT minor would be beneficial. They needed to demonstrate to the administrators that such a minor would provide competetiveness in the job market.
Didn't someone once say that college's job is to teach you how to think? Some people go to college thinking it's like going to cosmotology school or trade school. Obviously, some majors prepare you for a specific career track, such as nursing and accounting - but I'd say those majors are in the minority (no pun intended).
I'm not saying that college isn't a good investment in the right situations,..with the right attitudes and expectations. Unfortunately I feel that most college students don't have the right attitudes and expectations and are probably in less than ideal situations.
To me; college exposes you to to much uncertainty and risk. If you can't get a scholarship or financial aid (lord knows the gov't has no money to pass out pell grants) you should expect to pay out the sphincter to get any sort of degree and then in this economy and job market there is no guarantee that there will be a paying job for you when you graduate.
That's when the student loan sharking to pay for the school plus easy to get credit cards to support yourself comes in (who can keep up with grades and still be able to eat and keep a roof over their head?).
Then if you are wishy washy you put in a bunch of time and money into a degree that you decide you no longer want to pursue and poof,...all those credits you paid for no longer count towards the new major you want to go after, well you just blew a bunch of money you don't have and can't default on.
I'm not saying that the answer is to socialize education,...but it's too cost prohibitive and risky for me that I'd rather make $11 an hour at a job a like and have level (as opposed to lofty) aspirations.
But if it works for you,...congrats and keep at it.
It's a bit different here. Instead of one traffic cone you have two cones side by side, with one of them positioned upside down. The right side up one is your gen ed classes, these last up until your senior year, but get fewer and fewer in number. Your major, however, is the upside down cone. You'll come into college and perhaps do one business class freshman year, a few broad ones sophomore year, and then you enter your college junior year. It's not until your senior year that you're really in your major classes.
Basically, it's designed so that you can't really figure out what you like until you're already two years into the university and have already been accepted into a specific college. Unless you come into Uni with a ton of AP credits You're going to be stuck doing work that is unrelated to what you're even trying to do - so here's hoping you chose right because even the gen eds are specific to each college. You can't start with business gen eds and then go into the sciences your junior year if it seems like business isn't what you want to do.
Likewise, you can get a degree in three to four years, but that really requires you to have taken a lot of AP classes in high school and for you to know exactly what you want to do going in to college. My ex basically came into college as a sophomore, so I know it's possible, but she also knew exactly what she's been wanting to do with her life since she was 10 years old. It doesn't hurt that she's near genius intelligence, either
But even if you just want to finish in (what was) the standard four years you still have to come in knowing what you want to do from day one, and you have to take a full workload each semester. So if you take a wrong class by mistake or if your required classes change anytime in your stay at Uni you'll be SOL and have to take summer school just to keep up, and that can definitely play a damper in any kid's plan to do an internship or co-op.
Cheers for the run down, I may end up working in the US for 12-24 months, so it's useful to know how the system works!
And we all know someone like that, those lucky brainy folk! A friend of mine for UG studies, left high school a year early, with enough grades to get into the 2nd year of university. Finished her degree by 19, went straight into a PhD and completed it by 22! (heck, I think she was still 21 when she submitted her thesis). Kinda gutting when I think I'm doing ok with being on track to have that by 27 . . .
And we all know someone like that, those lucky brainy folk! A friend of mine for UG studies, left high school a year early, with enough grades to get into the 2nd year of university. Finished her degree by 19, went straight into a PhD and completed it by 22! (heck, I think she was still 21 when she submitted her thesis). Kinda gutting when I think I'm doing ok with being on track to have that by 27 . . .
Yep, RN's here in the SF Bay Area make way more than $24 per hour. It's also more expensive too.
I will add Radiography, Nuclear Medicine Tech, & Sonography Tech. Not quite as lucarative but no slouch in pay either but you will probably start in the range of $25 an hour. Most schools in California are really competitive depending on the program (all previously mentioned here including LPN's) and those interested need to have pre-req's completed to apply (a lot). There's a waiting list also up to 3 years to get in programs unless you go to a private school and spend $80-$100K for your degree. But still, 2 years of schooling in CA for a job that will pay in the $40K's to start and upon retiring probably well over $100,000. If you can you should.
I think doing a lot of research preemptively solves these particular problems. First, people should pick institutions that they can afford. Second and supplementary to that, there is still a lot of money floating around for students that apply for it--granted guidance counselors and even financial aid advisors at colleges don't do a great job of telling students about them. At least even those people will tell every student not to take out private student loans when they can get a much better deal on the federal ones and not to live off of credit cards for four years. It's not a trap all students are directed toward, it's a bad decision some students make despite the clear signs that you shouldn't do that. You wouldn't sign up for the unaccredited online university that promises a BS in 18 months, why would you take the high interest loans or decide to bill a college lifestyle to visa?
The same thing goes for transferring credits. Do the research and you can find the schools with the most transferability and the classes that will best apply to multiple fields while you're still exploring. Of course it's not such a financial waste if you have to throw a couple out when you did the full scholarship/fellowship/needs-based/work study research in the first place--you just waste your time. You even get some leeway with the extra discipline-specific coursesbecause almost all four year programs have elective slots as part of the degree requirements.
I think a lot of the "wasted" credits and missed financial help come from students who just accept whatever they're told by the first advisor they talk to without doing any real research into what all of their options are.
I was a good student, not a genius or a star athlete or anything else spectacular--despite qualifying for no federal grants or other financial support services, I managed to get through six years of school without ever paying for tuition, without ever falling into debt, and without having to work a 40 hr/week job on the side. I changed my undergraduate major a couple times and still graduated right at the number of required hours (that is, I didn't have extra coursework that didn't count toward graduation) because of elective slots and mixing upper and lower level classes from the beginning to see how much I liked a field w/out taking a full semester of classes in it.
The thread is revealing--perhaps the difference between HS and college that all counselors, parents, and everyone else fails to emphasize is the difference between being an active and passive student. Great comments about needing to be active in the classroom and actively engaged with the best faculty you can find, instead of sitting back and going through the motions of a degree hoping to receive a useful product. I think my comment above emphasizes that active role outside of the classroom--students can't tell someone what they want to be when they grow up and expect to get steered in the right direction. They're already grown up; they need to do all of the work in figuring out which programs are realistic for them, how they can build contingency plans into their coursework choices, and how they can pay for everything.
Isn't there a black market for textbooks? Actually they seem to be so expensive in the US that I can't imagine there not being a black market.
Buy textbook for 100 dollars
Scan entire textbook
Sell the pdf for 2 dollars to a 100 students
PROFIT
?
Buy textbook for 100 dollars
Scan entire textbook
Sell the pdf for 2 dollars to a 100 students
PROFIT
?
There is a website,
a '.nu' website.
Acts like a 'library',
Where you can get access to a huge amount of textbooks for free (they even had some mega rare ones that I couldn't find to buy).
a '.nu' website.
Acts like a 'library',
Where you can get access to a huge amount of textbooks for free (they even had some mega rare ones that I couldn't find to buy).
This is actually part of the reason textbooks are so expensive. Even before the internet and pdfs, five or ten students would chip in to buy one textbook and share it or photocopy pages. Publishers respond by jacking up prices to guarantee a profit, and so the textbook price arms race begins...
Mohawk, do you have a 13th year of secondary education before entering Uni, and then apply straight to the department you'll get your degree in rather than to teh school as a whole? That's the way the German system runs - university-bound students go to Gymnasium, where a lot of the teachers have PhDs and they have a 13th year. Seems to me that basically means they do the equivalent of American "general education" or "distribution" requirements before entering the university itself, and effectively choose their "major" at the time they do their applications. The American system is designed for flexibility, the theory being to let (or indeed, force) the students to explore a lot of different subjects before settling into their primary field. I think there are pros and cons to each system.
We have 7 years of primary school, then 4 to 6 years of secondary school. Students can leave after 4th year (or once they turn 16).
Your 5th and 6th years in secondary school is where you do courses that can count towards university. We have "UCAS" over here. Every course is worth X- credits (different credits per grade). When you apply to university, you need a certain number of credits and specific grades in different subjects, all of which depends on where and what you are applying to do.
Generally we spend the earlier years of high school, getting a taster for different subjects, and start specialising in secondary school (some subjects are required as standard, English & Maths for instance).
In your last year of secondary school (5th or 6th if you are applying for university), you apply to specific courses at university. But depending on what you do, it's fairly flexible one you are in. You could usually move about a little bit within a school/college at a university (or even move to a similar school/college at a different university).
Once you are at university, you couldn't change from doing Chemistry to doing Art (for instance).
Thanks, that filled in my understanding. Sounds like a system somewhere between the American and German ones.
It'll be more complicated, in that it will differ drastically between countries.
In the US, I presume it'll differ a bit between states, but there'll still be an overall framework in place across the entire US?
This is an interesting discussion.
Let's be clear - not ALL programs require 2 years of futzing around with Gen Eds before studying the main program. Only certain programs and schools do. Some programs have you dive right in. For my undergrad (Chemical Engineering), I was taking engineering courses from the first semester. I took Gen Eds all the way along. You can find this out by requesting the curriculum from the department before you matriculate. If you don't know exactly what you will take and when - well, that's on you - NOT the school.
For engineering - diving right in has a distinct benefit. It weeds people out. Kids hear that chemical engineers have starting salaries in the mid-$60K range, but don't love the material. They then hate the material and change majors - not a bad thing, but they learn in the 1st 3 semesters whether they like it or not. If you last those three semesters, you can easily last the entire time. As an example, in Fall 1998, we started with 120 chemical engineering majors in our class. We graduated 41 four years later.
Textbooks - not all textbooks are worthless - it depends on your field. For engineering - they are expensive, but they tend to be industry standards. I can walk into any chemical engineer's office, and there is a VERY good chance that I will have used the same text books, albeit newer editions. I have kept almost all of my textbooks from undergrad and grad schools.
Higher education does not have to be a scam. If you know what you want before you go in, have an active plan to accomplish that, and your selected area of study has a direct market demand - you are golden.
Let's be clear - not ALL programs require 2 years of futzing around with Gen Eds before studying the main program. Only certain programs and schools do. Some programs have you dive right in. For my undergrad (Chemical Engineering), I was taking engineering courses from the first semester. I took Gen Eds all the way along. You can find this out by requesting the curriculum from the department before you matriculate. If you don't know exactly what you will take and when - well, that's on you - NOT the school.
For engineering - diving right in has a distinct benefit. It weeds people out. Kids hear that chemical engineers have starting salaries in the mid-$60K range, but don't love the material. They then hate the material and change majors - not a bad thing, but they learn in the 1st 3 semesters whether they like it or not. If you last those three semesters, you can easily last the entire time. As an example, in Fall 1998, we started with 120 chemical engineering majors in our class. We graduated 41 four years later.
Textbooks - not all textbooks are worthless - it depends on your field. For engineering - they are expensive, but they tend to be industry standards. I can walk into any chemical engineer's office, and there is a VERY good chance that I will have used the same text books, albeit newer editions. I have kept almost all of my textbooks from undergrad and grad schools.
Higher education does not have to be a scam. If you know what you want before you go in, have an active plan to accomplish that, and your selected area of study has a direct market demand - you are golden.
I am keeping most of my textbooks as well. They are very useful in the real world for engineers.
lowsound
