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[A-Step-Towards]

Then go study something more challenging. If you think what you're doing is too easy, try some courses where you can't BS your way out. Try engineering, medicine or lawschool, whatever, and see if you can take the easy way out there.

I forgot about this thread so I will kinda answer multiple things in this one message.

I started college in fall 2008 right after i graduated highschool. I didnt know what to do , highschool doesnt prepare you for what you want to do your whole life.

I looked to people i respected and my uncle had a criminal justice degree and worked with troubled youth teens at a juvenile facility. I (having got in some trouble as a teen) thought this was something I would be great at and i could relate to these teens so i started working towards my CJ degree.

The first year was just intro level classes at a community college so i figured thats why it was easy , the 2nd year was community college again and working on back core classes, the 3rd year i transfered to a university and i thought finally a challenge. Nothing , after the first term I felt no stress , no pace increase , not a thing.

Now my highschool teachers would freak us out talking about how hard college was and I was sitting there with 90 college credits just feeling like it was highschool still .

Trust me i wish i took something more challenging , but when you start out 18 and you hear all these "myths" you think wow anything in college is hard, well thats not true there are ALOT of easy degrees.

Now what? i had over 90 credits most all criminal justice , thats 2 years of my life, and college costs so much money and I am on full ride financial aid as I am so poor yet that doesnt cover it all. I dont and didnt have the option of just switching majors , so from day 1 i was locked in. Financial aid only gives you money up to a certain amount of credits so if i switched majors i would end up spending tens of thousands of dollars and then HOPING the next degree i picked was challenging , because you dont know until you get knee deep in it.

I just got my grades B , B+ , A, A- , i spent no more then 3 hours a week on homework.

I am debating on going on with a masters degree and then maybe I will find a challenge.

Ps i am on a phone so dont rag on my grammer please.

 

[hrodbert696]

This is an interesting discussion.

Let's be clear - not ALL programs require 2 years of futzing around with Gen Eds before studying the main program. Only certain programs and schools do. Some programs have you dive right in. For my undergrad (Chemical Engineering), I was taking engineering courses from the first semester. I took Gen Eds all the way along. You can find this out by requesting the curriculum from the department before you matriculate. If you don't know exactly what you will take and when - well, that's on you - NOT the school.

For engineering - diving right in has a distinct benefit. It weeds people out. Kids hear that chemical engineers have starting salaries in the mid-$60K range, but don't love the material. They then hate the material and change majors - not a bad thing, but they learn in the 1st 3 semesters whether they like it or not. If you last those three semesters, you can easily last the entire time. As an example, in Fall 1998, we started with 120 chemical engineering majors in our class. We graduated 41 four years later.

Textbooks - not all textbooks are worthless - it depends on your field. For engineering - they are expensive, but they tend to be industry standards. I can walk into any chemical engineer's office, and there is a VERY good chance that I will have used the same text books, albeit newer editions. I have kept almost all of my textbooks from undergrad and grad schools.

Higher education does not have to be a scam. If you know what you want before you go in, have an active plan to accomplish that, and your selected area of study has a direct market demand - you are golden.

Agreement here. For clarification, I teach history, and my decision not to use textbooks is specific to my field, and I think would apply to most of the humanities. For math, science and engineering, I'm sure the textbooks are more necessary.

 

[hrodbert696]

I forgot about this thread so I will kinda answer multiple things in this one message.

I started college in fall 2008 right after i graduated highschool. I didnt know what to do , highschool doesnt prepare you for what you want to do your whole life.

I looked to people i respected and my uncle had a criminal justice degree and worked with troubled youth teens at a juvenile facility. I (having got in some trouble as a teen) thought this was something I would be great at and i could relate to these teens so i started working towards my CJ degree.

The first year was just intro level classes at a community college so i figured thats why it was easy , the 2nd year was community college again and working on back core classes, the 3rd year i transfered to a university and i thought finally a challenge. Nothing , after the first term I felt no stress , no pace increase , not a thing.

Now my highschool teachers would freak us out talking about how hard college was and I was sitting there with 90 college credits just feeling like it was highschool still .

Trust me i wish i took something more challenging , but when you start out 18 and you hear all these "myths" you think wow anything in college is hard, well thats not true there are ALOT of easy degrees.

Now what? i had over 90 credits most all criminal justice , thats 2 years of my life, and college costs so much money and I am on full ride financial aid as I am so poor yet that doesnt cover it all. I dont and didnt have the option of just switching majors , so from day 1 i was locked in. Financial aid only gives you money up to a certain amount of credits so if i switched majors i would end up spending tens of thousands of dollars and then HOPING the next degree i picked was challenging , because you dont know until you get knee deep in it.

I just got my grades B , B+ , A, A- , i spent no more then 3 hours a week on homework.

I am debating on going on with a masters degree and then maybe I will find a challenge.

Ps i am on a phone so dont rag on my grammer please.

I'm currently adjuncting at a four-year school that only grew from being a two-year school in the last decade or so. It's still basically a local business school at heart. Last year I taught a course in world religions, and taught it to my usual standards.

At midterm I got an upset email from a student. Her first paper and midterm had come back and she was averaging about a D. She was actually about a C+ because I count discussion participation heavily and she always got involved in discussion. The gist of her email was that her friend was in another professor's section of the same course, had learned nothing (her words), done no work, and was getting an A, while she was working her butt off in my course and getting a D. So she was thinking of transferring to the other section.

My response was that 1) she was doing better than she thought, 2) the early papers only count for 25% of the grade; later versions of the same assignment count more heavily, once students have had a chance to try them out and get what my expectations are, so her grade would almost certainly go up (this normally happens in my courses - final grades always come out higher than midterm) and 3) she needed to ask if spending tuition money to learn nothing and get easy As was a good investment in the long run.

She transferred to the other section.

A-Step, I can't tell you how encouraging it is to hear from a student who feels they aren't getting enough of a challenge and wants more. I also can't tell you how rare it is. When you give the hard work, students in droves do not read the book, do not listen to directions on how to write a paper (I get students not bothering even to use the font I specify for them to use), and do not ask for help. That makes it really hard to hold the line on standards and keep your courses challenging for the 10% who will rise to the challenge to EARN As and Bs, while letting the other 90% fail or scrape by with Cs and Ds.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

This is an interesting discussion.

Let's be clear - not ALL programs require 2 years of futzing around with Gen Eds before studying the main program. Only certain programs and schools do...

That's kind of the catch - everyone here (or at least most everyone) who has said their college experience was worth all their time and money has been in engineering or some similarly intensive science program.

Likewise, all the people who I talk to whose experience has reflected on what A-Step and I have been saying have been in some form of business, communications, hospitality, or liberal arts major.

Perhaps not all majors are created equal and the standard 120 hours needed for graduation should not encompass all majors like they currently do. That, or all majors should do something similar to engineering and have you delve straight into the course material so that within the first year you can figure out if you're doing what you want to do with your college career. It definitely would of saved me (and I'm sure many, many others) a lot of time and money.

 

[A-Step-Towards]

I'm currently adjuncting at a four-year school that only grew from being a two-year school in the last decade or so. It's still basically a local business school at heart. Last year I taught a course in world religions, and taught it to my usual standards.

At midterm I got an upset email from a student. Her first paper and midterm had come back and she was averaging about a D. She was actually about a C+ because I count discussion participation heavily and she always got involved in discussion. The gist of her email was that her friend was in another professor's section of the same course, had learned nothing (her words), done no work, and was getting an A, while she was working her butt off in my course and getting a D. So she was thinking of transferring to the other section.

My response was that 1) she was doing better than she thought, 2) the early papers only count for 25% of the grade; later versions of the same assignment count more heavily, once students have had a chance to try them out and get what my expectations are, so her grade would almost certainly go up (this normally happens in my courses - final grades always come out higher than midterm) and 3) she needed to ask if spending tuition money to learn nothing and get easy As was a good investment in the long run.

She transferred to the other section.

A-Step, I can't tell you how encouraging it is to hear from a student who feels they aren't getting enough of a challenge and wants more. I also can't tell you how rare it is. When you give the hard work, students in droves do not read the book, do not listen to directions on how to write a paper (I get students not bothering even to use the font I specify for them to use), and do not ask for help. That makes it really hard to hold the line on standards and keep your courses challenging for the 10% who will rise to the challenge to EARN As and Bs, while letting the other 90% fail or scrape by with Cs and Ds.

I have seen the work other students do , half hearted attempts all done the night before. I have seen these students get D's and Cs in classes that were simplistic to get a A in .

I was just having this discussion with my father who has a masters degree and is also a teacher in Portland. He said that it must just be my degree and encouraged me to go on for my masters so I am looking into starting that in the fall.

Its not that I hate school , its not that I am saying all higher ed is a joke, but I am saying its not been a challenge for me at all and that i think there should be a more standard level of education, because some teachers are just to easy .

A criminal justice degree maybe easy at my school but hard at another and thats the problem. They need to be more standard

 

[aborgman]

Sounds like a pretty crappy experience.

Sounds like a pretty crappy university.

 

[aborgman]

Man you got me started.

I am a senior in college and i have realized a few things about higher education. Its a joke.

College prepares you to take it, take it for the next 40 years. To get anything done in college you have to run to this person , to that person and then back to this person. They just pass the buck right along.

So in other words it's just like adult life?

 

[aborgman]

Hrod,

That's good and all, but I don't remember anyone ever telling me college is what you make it in high school. I heard a lot of, "It's harder", "No one will hold your hand and force you to do homework", "You'll have to devote x hours outside of every class to study", etc... but I can't recall a single "You need to take an active approach."

So your parents and high school instructors/guidance counselors failed you... and you failed yourself.

You shouldn't need to have someone external TELL you "You need to take an active approach."

 

[jmattbassplaya]

So your parents and high school instructors/guidance counselors failed you... and you failed yourself.

You shouldn't need to have someone external TELL you "You need to take an active approach."

That's kind of a rude post, especially when you don't know my situation, don't you think? I already have a job waiting for me when I graduate (if I want it), so the idea that I somehow failed myself definitely isn't the case.

I also wouldn't say my parents, friends' parents, or instructors failed me. I'm really of the mind that the college experience has changed since their days at uni. Otherwise, I'd think someone would of mentioned taking a much more active approach.

 

[aborgman]

That's kind of a rude post, especially when you don't know my situation, don't you think?

I do know your situation - you're unhappy with the results of the educational choices you've made.

I already have a job waiting for me when I graduate (if I want it), so the idea that I somehow failed myself definitely isn't the case.

You failed yourself with respect to this particular facet of your life, not life in general.

We all fail at things every day. You failed to do due diligence in choosing a university and program of study.

It's a very common thing. My wife went through three different universities, four majors, and eight years before getting a degree... because she failed in evaluating school choices and making good decisions regarding her future employment.

I also wouldn't say my parents, friends' parents, or instructors failed me. I'm really of the mind that the college experience has changed since their days at uni. Otherwise, I'd think someone would of mentioned taking a much more active approach.

That points to their failure in understanding the modern university education.

That being said - I don't think things have changed much at all from the time I graduated almost 20 years ago, at least where I went to school/work.

 

[hrodbert696]

Who failed whom? I don't know what kind of applications Jmatt and A-Step were able to put together, what financial situation they were in and what aid may or may not have been available to them. It's possible they could have done more school research, or applied to more challenging schools that would have been less frustrating. Or, that may not have been an option. I'll reserve judgment.

The thing about individual initiative is that most students really do NOT know, coming out of high school, that that can or should approach professors individually. The way high school is taught, the assumption one makes is that all education happens in classrooms. Then students find themselves with 15-hour course schedules and lots of options clamoring for the rest of their time. They end up getting the 15-hour-a-week education. I wouldn't blame a student for not realizing they need to get more out of it by going to their professors and seeking mentoring, if nobody told them this.

Of course, I remind my students CONSTANTLY about office hours and hardly any of them take advantage of it. It's really a paradigm shift that can be hard to grasp.

Aborgman, I don't know how long ago you went to college. Some things never change. Students have tended to procrastinate and drink for as long as there has been college. But a lot has changed. Grade inflation statistics point to seriously different classroom dynamics. Students evaluate their professors to an extent that never used to be true. Demographics are different, and the preparation students arrive in school with is different.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

That, or all majors should do something similar to engineering and have you delve straight into the course material so that within the first year you can figure out if you're doing what you want to do with your college career. It definitely would of saved me (and I'm sure many, many others) a lot of time and money.

Engineering's perhaps a little different, because many programs are based on a 3-2 trajectory - but I'm a little puzzled by all this talk about how you have to wait two years to get into your core major courses. I started taking core classes in my major by my second semester. Unless your major, department, or college states you need to complete all general education requirements before taking core major courses, what's the big deal? If I saw a major course available and it didn't have any prereq, I registered for it. I would have probably taken a lot more major courses in my first two years hadn't I started at my university's branch campus, which didn't have close to the same course offerings as main campus.

A lot of graduate programs are cohort-based, but I don't know many undergrad programs that are cohort-based. I'm not saying they don't exist - it's just that they don't seem to be the norm, which is why I don't understand what the fruhaha is with not taking core courses unless your third year.

 

[Chebass88]

In undergrad - C's get degrees.

In grad school - B's get degrees.

It starts in high school. Of all of my teachers in high school, there were only a handful of worthwhile teachers, actually preparing us for college. Sure, some of the others were fun and really nice, but fun and nice does not prepare a student well for a rigorous college curriculum. Once a student realizes he (she) can skate through without a significant effort, that approach and style will continue through higher education. Why work hard and earn something really difficult when you can get a degree the easy way?

 

[aborgman]

I wouldn't blame a student for not realizing they need to get more out of it by going to their professors and seeking mentoring, if nobody told them this.

I would.

It's their responsibility, they're now adults, and that is how things work in the real world.

If you're getting a substandard education because you need to be told to have initiative, you're getting the education you deserve.

 

[Scogman]

In undergrad - C's get degrees.

In grad school - B's get degrees.

...

In undergrad, C's may get degrees, but it won't help getting into law or grad school. That would be my statement to youngsters.

In grad school B's get degrees. No argument there.

 

[Chebass88]

In undergrad, C's may get degrees, but it won't help getting into law or grad school. That would be my statement to youngsters.

In grad school B's get degrees. No argument there.

I know. I found this out the hard way. My undergrad performance was pretty awful - only a 2.7 GPA. I took grad courses one at a time before seeking admission to the program. Based on my performance in these classes (as well as strong work performance and my GRE scores), I was able to get into grad school.

And all because I goofed off too much in undergrad. Looking back - it really wasn't **that** hard. Well - I learned that lesson...