12" cab, high power handling recommendations

[PaulReside]

I use a fearful 12x6x1 with a 12 sub , qsc1200 power amp bridged and various preamp and can keep up with a Fender twin very nicely. As usual YMMV.

 

[Passinwind]

Even then, that little thing was scary loud, even with the low B's! I think it might have even had a little left. Next time we need to put your PW-6 through my DB728 into it. That might be too much of a good thing, though.

I just ran out of gas before I got to try your complete rig (which sounded way cool), but I'd love to check out the DB728, for sure. At an earlier GTG I ran that tube preamp into a friend's Sadowsky SA200's power section, into a Beg NV412. Yow!

Back on-topic: I used to run two old school full range 15 cabs on all my gigs for a few decades, mostly EVM15Bs, JBL E145s or Altec 421s. A pair of modern 12s is better in every way for my purposes, and just one has handled the vast majority of my gigs for the last decade or so. A single 115 cab with old school drivers never ever got me there, FWIW.

 

[brianrost]

There are plenty of 112 cabs in the 300-400W range. I wouldn't think twice about using an 1000W power amp with a pair of them.

 

[Dragan]

I had markbass club (discontinued) series 12'' box declared with 400W on 8 ohms. nice one and it weigh only 12 kilos.

 

[Dragan]

But my Aguilar DB112 were best cab I had, weighed double than my MB and cost double as well...rightfully so if we talk about sound quality.

 

[grenadilla]

The 2016 Ashdown RM 12 T is only $300 (Sweetwater) for a 300w cabinet.-also the 15" version

 

[braud357]

I have been using (2) 1x 12" cabs with my Carvin BX1500 head bridged. The cabs contain MCM 12" stamped-frame speakers rated at 350 watts RMS. I play in a 8 piece horn band playing soul, r&b, and old rock & roll. I do have PA support and it is PLENTY loud. I have never had the master volume above 2. I am sure that if you cranked the hell out of it - something would give. I have no concerns about blowing the speakers at the volume that they are being played and with all of the clean headroom the amp provides

 

[GMC]

Look up Barefaced.....their Big baby II sound do the trick...800w and all the SPL and low f3 a bassist could want for...oh and it's light too.

 

[GMC]

Frankly, I don't know of any 12" drivers that are suitable to bass guitar (with acceptable bass guitar mid voicing) that will be able to safely handle 550 watts (RMS) with any kind of reasonable lifespan. With a compact cabinet, and the expectation of good low frequency performance, you will find that you will exceed the mechanical power handling, and in order to increase the mechanical power handling (driver design adjustments) you will lose almost all of that increased power handling with a corresponding decrease in sensitivity... ie. crossing the point of diminishing returns, because you will be so far into power compression that any gains from power handling are offset by losses in sensitivity (including static sensitivity plus power compression losses)

Driving any 12" cabinets with that kind of power will require good common sense and judgement, along with a steep HPF set around 40Hz (or higher), seems like a lot of effort to gain a "net nothing" from your speakers (whatever they might end up being) with big potential for damage.

And, before anybody dogs on me for disparaging other speakers, I am talking in general about all known drivers that I have worked with, including drivers that I have designed. I know there is a lot of bragging about how this or that cabinet can "take the power", but if you were to actually measure the net gain, (via a large signal model) you would find that it's not even close to what the "small signal" model would predict... and everybody uses the small signal model to extrapolate the large signal performance (which is VERY misleading IMO)

Frankly...you've never heard of Barefaced then.... Barefaced Bass - Big Baby 2
The problem with most 12" cabs...is that there's only a few drivers available. Most of these OEM cabs are all using the same 3 or 4 drivers which are available. Nothing is really custom, they are mostly off the shelf units anyone can buy and most are designed for PA use and not Specifically Bass guitar. Where as....Barefaced bass designed their own driver specifically for bass and yes they are amazing...and they really are very very good.

 

[Tommyc]

Remember when one asked about power handling and the automatic answer was Acme. Nothing off the shelf about Andy's drivers either.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Yes, or at least very close. Check out David Nordschow Amplification's (DNA) DNS112. This is his most popular cab. it has good sensitivity and good power handling besides being a great sounding cab. I have his DNS410 and it is killer.

Here's a link:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

And here are the specs:
Specifications

Power Handling: 450 W RMS - 900 W Peak
Impedance: 8 Ω
Sensitivity: 99dB @2.83V/1M
SPL: 129 dB SPL max
Frequency Response: 32Hz to 14KHz
Size: 14.5"H x 21"W x 16"D
Weight: 34lb
Coverage Pattern: 60 degree
Tuning: 40 HZ Flaired port

 

[agedhorse]

Frankly...you've never heard of Barefaced then.... Barefaced Bass - Big Baby 2
The problem with most 12" cabs...is that there's only a few drivers available. Most of these OEM cabs are all using the same 3 or 4 drivers which are available. Nothing is really custom, they are mostly off the shelf units anyone can buy and most are designed for PA use and not Specifically Bass guitar. Where as....Barefaced bass designed their own driver specifically for bass and yes they are amazing...and they really are very very good.

I'm afraid that's just simply not true. I'm very much into driver design (from the engineering side of things), design the operational parameters for the cabinets, and I do have a good grasp of the math involved as well. I spent a good deal of time designing for the pro audio world as well, so I am aware of the advanced technologies well beyond what the MI market typically uses. With all of that, some (high quality) stock designs are within 0.5dB of the best available performance of any driver, assuming that they fit the appropriate parameters.

My issue in general with the MI speaker industry, is that there are widespread claims being made that just don't hold up when the actual numbers are worked out. The tradeoff between excursion, LF extension, enclosure size, sensitivity and midrange voicing is something that every transducer engineer struggles with in order to achieve the best tradeoffs for each particular application. Were you aware that the most common speaker rating method only requires that the driver survive for 2 hours? How useful is this? When the time is extended to a lifespan of 200 hours, the power rating decreases by ~25-30%. Which is the more realistic power rating?

How many folks have actually measured power compression transition curves versus frequency? I have, and design around these limits because that's the point where the non-linearity knee becomes significant. IME (and I have measured a lot of speakers in my day) 800 watts into any 12" driver will be far into power compression, and well past the point of linear operation. That's the point where mechanical damage becomes an issue

The system I used is the IASYS, which includes a non-destructive algorithm for creating an SPL linearity transfer function, by comparing input linearity with output linearity. This really shows what's happening under mechanical system limits.

And for clarity, I am not claiming that any of my designs exceed the real world limits of performance, I am held to the same rules of physics and math that everybody else is. I am just asking that we are all playing by the same math and the same physics.

 

[GMC]

I'm afraid that's just simply not true. I'm very much into driver design (from the engineering side of things), design the operational parameters for the cabinets, and I do have a good grasp of the math involved as well. I spent a good deal of time designing for the pro audio world as well, so I am aware of the advanced technologies well beyond what the MI market typically uses. With all of that, some (high quality) stock designs are within 0.5dB of the best available performance of any driver, assuming that they fit the appropriate parameters.

My issue in general with the MI speaker industry, is that there are widespread claims being made that just don't hold up when the actual numbers are worked out. The tradeoff between excursion, LF extension, enclosure size, sensitivity and midrange voicing is something that every transducer engineer struggles with in order to achieve the best tradeoffs for each particular application. Were you aware that the most common speaker rating method only requires that the driver survive for 2 hours? How useful is this? When the time is extended to a lifespan of 200 hours, the power rating decreases by ~25-30%. Which is the more realistic power rating?

How many folks have actually measured power compression transition curves versus frequency? I have, and design around these limits because that's the point where the non-linearity knee becomes significant. IME (and I have measured a lot of speakers in my day) 800 watts into any 12" driver will be far into power compression, and well past the point of linear operation. That's the point where mechanical damage becomes an issue

The system I used is the IASYS, which includes a non-destructive algorithm for creating an SPL linearity transfer function, by comparing input linearity with output linearity. This really shows what's happening under mechanical system limits.

And for clarity, I am not claiming that any of my designs exceed the real world limits of performance, I am held to the same rules of physics and math that everybody else is. I am just asking that we are all playing by the same math and the same physics.

Yes I hear what you are saying. I'm rarely interested in a driver's power rating. I tend to look for the F3, the excursion and the max SPL. As you said...at 400w most drivers are way past a linear response. I still think that there is more power safety and SPL in using multiple drivers / cabs.

 

[pfschim]

Frankly...you've never heard of Barefaced then.... Barefaced Bass - Big Baby 2
The problem with most 12" cabs...is that there's only a few drivers available. Most of these OEM cabs are all using the same 3 or 4 drivers which are available. Nothing is really custom, they are mostly off the shelf units anyone can buy and most are designed for PA use and not Specifically Bass guitar. Where as....Barefaced bass designed their own driver specifically for bass and yes they are amazing...and they really are very very good.

I know that Alex has done some very cool things with box designs and custom drivers, and accordingly, his cabs have developed a great reputation.
OTOH, I'm pretty sure Aged Horse has heard of Barefaced, and I would still place my bets with Andy's experience and knowledge re drivers, enclosures and the like.

probably a bad bet to suggest he does not know what he is talking about.

 

[Plutonium244]

When two engineers disagree, there is not much I can add. Agedhorse has been a design engineer for Mesa; Alex designs what I consider to be the finest bass cabs being made. If you want huge sound you're better off with multiple cabs and not focusing on watts. I think all can agree on that. That said, the BF's can handle a lot although I can't really imagine putting a full 800 W into a single cab. That would be unbelievably loud. Id rather have two cabs running 400W each that one at 800W. I do know from experience that a single BB2 can cover far more than I ever thought a single 12" cab could handle. I get by comfortably with one. I'd still like to pair it with a 2nd one.

 

[cfsporn]

When two engineers disagree, there is not much I can add. Agedhorse has been a design engineer for Mesa; Alex designs what I consider to be the finest bass cabs being made. If you want huge sound you're better off with multiple cabs and not focusing on watts. I think all can agree on that. That said, the BF's can handle a lot although I can't really imagine putting a full 800 W into a single cab. That would be unbelievably loud. Id rather have two cabs running 400W each that one at 800W. I do know from experience that a single BB2 can cover far more than I ever thought a single 12" cab could handle. I get by comfortably with one. I'd still like to pair it with a 2nd one.

When two engineers disagree, I sit back and learn.

 

[Plutonium244]

When two engineers disagree, I sit back and learn.

Yes, but when one plumber tells you that you need to do X and not Y, and the other plumber tells you that you need to do Y and not X, what have you learned about how to fix your plumbing?

 

[cfsporn]

Yes, but when one plumber tells you that you need to do X and not Y, and the other plumber tells you that you need to do Y and not X, what have you learned about how to fix your plumbing?

Do Z

 

[winegamd]

Frankly...you've never heard of Barefaced then.... Barefaced Bass - Big Baby 2
The problem with most 12" cabs...is that there's only a few drivers available. Most of these OEM cabs are all using the same 3 or 4 drivers which are available. Nothing is really custom, they are mostly off the shelf units anyone can buy and most are designed for PA use and not Specifically Bass guitar.

This is just not true. Audiokinesis, Baer, Bergantino, Warwick, and Mesa all have drivers that they have designed themselves or specifically for their applications, and I am sure there are more.

 

[BecDeCorbin]

But two 112s will??

Yeah. They're smaller.