12" cab, high power handling recommendations

[agedhorse]

Yes I hear what you are saying. I'm rarely interested in a driver's power rating. I tend to look for the F3, the excursion and the max SPL. As you said...at 400w most drivers are way past a linear response. I still think that there is more power safety and SPL in using multiple drivers / cabs.

This is all true, and I agree that as soon as you reach the point of diminishing returns, the real gains come from adding another cabinet.

I mentioned sensitivity as a major governing factor because it is a big tradeoff against the other competing variables.

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, but when one plumber tells you that you need to do X and not Y, and the other plumber tells you that you need to do Y and not X, what have you learned about how to fix your plumbing?

I am not telling you WHAT, I am telling you about the range of WHY'S. That's the difference.

 

[cfsporn]

This is just not true. Audiokinesis, Baer, Bergantino, Warwick, and Mesa all have drivers that they have designed themselves or specifically for their applications, and I am sure there are more.

Literally all of the companies you mentioned use either stock drivers or moderately modified stock drivers.

 

[agedhorse]

Literally all of the companies you mentioned use either stock drivers or moderately modified stock drivers.

Generally, this is the case for all manufacturers because the cost of tooling the metalwork needs to be spread out over hundreds of thousands of parts. It's no different than buying stock metalwork and assembling it, CNC machining the motor parts (if that's part of the design criteria), buying the necessary soft parts designed to spec. and assembling. The key is to know what you need and how it all goes together mathematically to be an acceptable solution to the already defined speaker system.

Sometimes the parts are available, sometimes we have to tool them. Why tool something that has already been tooled. That's part of being a good engineer. I have only had to tool motor parts only once (and with different grade ceramic and alloy of steel), and it was during the Neo disaster where we needed to consider the additional costs of tooling a ceramic pole assembly versus the saved weight in the light of the outrageous costs of Neo. Suddenly, a previous design approach that I had worked on years before became really attractive because it saved weight at a much lower cost (per pound) than using Neo, with very similar preformance (in some ways better, in some ways not quite as nice). EVERYTHING is a tradeoff.

 

[winegamd]

Literally all of the companies you mentioned use either stock drivers or moderately modified stock drivers.

And what do you think Barefaced has done? Last time I checked they were not a speaker manufacturer. A spec racecar is just a moderately modified factory stock car, but performs significantly different. It doesn't take much to turn a good speaker into an amazing speaker in your application. Also, a good design can make a good speaker sound amazing. This is why Duke is now using a lot of stock drivers.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I'm afraid that's just simply not true. I'm very much into driver design (from the engineering side of things), design the operational parameters for the cabinets, and I do have a good grasp of the math involved as well. I spent a good deal of time designing for the pro audio world as well, so I am aware of the advanced technologies well beyond what the MI market typically uses. With all of that, some (high quality) stock designs are within 0.5dB of the best available performance of any driver, assuming that they fit the appropriate parameters.

My issue in general with the MI speaker industry, is that there are widespread claims being made that just don't hold up when the actual numbers are worked out. The tradeoff between excursion, LF extension, enclosure size, sensitivity and midrange voicing is something that every transducer engineer struggles with in order to achieve the best tradeoffs for each particular application. Were you aware that the most common speaker rating method only requires that the driver survive for 2 hours? How useful is this? When the time is extended to a lifespan of 200 hours, the power rating decreases by ~25-30%. Which is the more realistic power rating?

How many folks have actually measured power compression transition curves versus frequency? I have, and design around these limits because that's the point where the non-linearity knee becomes significant. IME (and I have measured a lot of speakers in my day) 800 watts into any 12" driver will be far into power compression, and well past the point of linear operation. That's the point where mechanical damage becomes an issue

The system I used is the IASYS, which includes a non-destructive algorithm for creating an SPL linearity transfer function, by comparing input linearity with output linearity. This really shows what's happening under mechanical system limits.

And for clarity, I am not claiming that any of my designs exceed the real world limits of performance, I am held to the same rules of physics and math that everybody else is. I am just asking that we are all playing by the same math and the same physics.

Down with fuzzy math and false physics!

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I still think that there is more power safety and SPL in using multiple drivers / cabs.

Can I call you to book a hotel for my next trip?

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Remember when one asked about power handling and the automatic answer was Acme. Nothing off the shelf about Andy's drivers either.

Oh there must be a Wyle E. Coyote, story in this somewhere.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Yes, but when one plumber tells you that you need to do X and not Y, and the other plumber tells you that you need to do Y and not X, what have you learned about how to fix your plumbing?

That you need to keep looking for plumbers?

 

[DWBass]

The Avatar Ceramic Speaker cab handles 500w. 2 of those will be pretty loud. I gigged one for years (paired with an Avatar ceramic 2x10 700w). I mean if you're just concerned with the power handling. I can't speak on the efficiency of the cab. I just know it worked for me.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Yes, but when one plumber tells you that you need to do X and not Y, and the other plumber tells you that you need to do Y and not X, what have you learned about how to fix your plumbing?

Uh... is the correct answer... I should have become a plumber so I could fix it myself?

 

[monsterthompson]

I second the recommendation of Barefaced Big Baby 2. They can handle 800W apiece. One would handle a helluva lot of gigs; two would be more than a match for anything, anywhere, any time.

This.

 

[mc900ftj]

My goal is to take full advantage of my crown power amp that provides 1100w@4 ohms, whilst being easy to move around. I'm long past the days of being able to hulk heavy cabs around.

My 12" cab handles 1100 watts easily, wait...it's more than 1 12.

But seriously, good luck. I don't know of a single 12" cab with that kind of power handling.

 

[bdplaid]

The Avatar Ceramic Speaker cab handles 500w. 2 of those will be pretty loud. I gigged one for years (paired with an Avatar ceramic 2x10 700w). I mean if you're just concerned with the power handling. I can't speak on the efficiency of the cab. I just know it worked for me.

I commented earlier about those. and they have a 95 dB efficiency, meaning it take a lot to get them loud. I liked mine for small gigs only. I usually couldn't hear it.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

My 12" cab handles 1100 watts easily, wait...it's more than 1 12.

But seriously, good luck. I don't know of a single 12" cab with that kind of power handling.

DANG! Nice setup! Ooh! A Ric and a 'der in the same room? Do they fight?

 

[mc900ftj]

DANG! Nice setup! Ooh! A Ric and a 'der in the same room? Do they fight?

Ha! No, they all get along quite nicely!

 

[DWBass]

I commented earlier about those. and they have a 95 dB efficiency, meaning it take a lot to get them loud. I liked mine for small gigs only. I usually couldn't hear it.

I hear you. I was running my setup with a Yorkville XS800 (800w@4ohms, 600w@8ohms). Guess I had enough wattage. My rig was loud. No problem being heard.

 

[srayb]

It's proving to be a difficult task to find a small, relatively light weight 112 that handles 500w. Anyone know of such a little beast?

I've got a Schroeder Mini 12+L that is rated at 500W. Sounds awesome and loud with my Genz-Benz Shuttle 6.2.

 

[bdplaid]

I hear you. I was running my setup with a Yorkville XS800 (800w@4ohms, 600w@8ohms). Guess I had enough wattage. My rig was loud. No problem being heard.

I was using a MarkBass Little Mark Tube 800. 500 watts @ 8 ohms. Loud thru everything but the Avatar. I even recall daisy-chaining the Avatar with other cabs I had, most memorably a GK 115-III. Couldn't hear a thing the Avatar was doing. Truth be told, I think the cab was OK, just a poor driver in it.
As Andy has been saying, speaker design is a balancing act, and I think in the case of the Eminence in the Avatar, it traded Efficiency for power handling. Which is stupid, because the goal is SPL for a given frequency range, not how much power a driver can soak up.

 

[sratas]

I second the recommendation of Barefaced Big Baby 2. They can handle 800W apiece. One would handle a helluva lot of gigs; two would be more than a match for anything, anywhere, any time.

I own a barefaced bb2. It's all true. It handles gobs of power and lowend without effort. Now it's time to say other aspects, the bb2 is a killer but it has a super clear and flat voicing. It will reveal tones and frequencies that you did not know as part of your bass and amp. It does not colour or ameliorate anything. If the tone you put in is not good, the bb2 will spit it out . It can be challenging and even frustrating sometimes. In fact, it has killed the future of my big bang, wich sounds lifeless, whereas a more coloured sound coming from tubes is further enhanced, every nuance is clearly represented.
If you are prone to fine tune your rig and you don't rely on a cab to make a certain tone, the bb2 excels. It,s flat as a ruler, warm and musical, sensitive so it plays loud even with a bunch of watts, it can go way deeper than average cabs and take all the bass boost available without freaking out, it's light and portable. For bigger shows 2 should sound like a giant.