12's In The Subs!

[shoot-r]

First off ..... I'm "NOT" a P.A. equipment geek.

Usually, I try not to care what the FOH is, as long as it sounds close to good and the vocals are on top of the mix. (I had to learn long ago, when the FOH is furnished, "it is what it is", put on the best show you can and move on.)

Did a large stage, outdoor, county fair job last night with a sound guy we'd never worked with before.

Really knew his stuff.

He was working with all EAW cabinets, (two subs on each side of the stage, four high/mid line array cabs on each side of the stage.)

I actually thought it might not be enough to cover the area and a large crowd.

I was wrong..........

LOUD, no flub, no mud, clear and clean, clean, clean projecting low end.

His abilities, choice of equipment, and the sound he got out of the equipment got my attention.

Talked with him after the gig as to how he was running things, (I'm used to the usual mud of 18" drivers in the subs and 18's was what I figured he was running.)

Some of the other sound company's we've worked with recently have run several 2x15 sub cabinets on each side of the stage, the 15" loaded subs weren't really clear either.

He floored me by telling me each sub had two 12" drivers in each.

He felt he could keep the 12" drivers tighter than he ever could 18's.

Truly made a believer out of me!

 

[kcole4001]

Every cab and speaker have their own pros and cons.
Our PA includes 2X18 cabs, 1X18 cabs, and 1X21 powered cabs.
The 2X18s push a good bit of air, the 1X18s are still plenty deep, but significantly punchier, and the powered 21s are portable earthquake machines.
New cabs are soooo much better than cabs built in the 80s and 90s.
Speaker tech has advanced similarly.

And quality does matter, as long as the tech knows his own gear and how to maximize it.

 

[modulusman]

I have some older EAW powered subs that have 12s in them. Invalid Link Removed I use them along with these tops. these were state of the art for powered speakers back when I bought them about 10 years ago.Invalid Link Removed

 

[RoadRanger]

18's or even 21's can be plenty clear in the hands of a competent operator. Conversely anything can sound like arse improperly used.

 

[Geri O]

First off ..... I'm "NOT" a P.A. equipment geek.

Usually, I try not to care what the FOH is, as long as it sounds close to good and the vocals are on top of the mix. (I had to learn long ago, when the FOH is furnished, "it is what it is", put on the best show you can and move on.)

Did a large stage, outdoor, county fair job last night with a sound guy we'd never worked with before.

Really knew his stuff.

He was working with all EAW cabinets, (two subs on each side of the stage, four high/mid line array cabs on each side of the stage.)

I actually thought it might not be enough to cover the area and a large crowd.

I was wrong..........

LOUD, no flub, no mud, clear and clean, clean, clean projecting low end.

His abilities, choice of equipment, and the sound he got out of the equipment got my attention.

Talked with him after the gig as to how he was running things, (I'm used to the usual mud of 18" drivers in the subs and 18's was what I figured he was running.)

Some of the other sound company's we've worked with recently have run several 2x15 sub cabinets on each side of the stage, the 15" loaded subs weren't really clear either.

He floored me by telling me each sub had two 12" drivers in each.

He felt he could keep the 12" drivers tighter than he ever could 18's.

Truly made a believer out of me!

It's amazing what EAW did with 12's and horn-loaded cabinets (Not sure about the NTS subs). Still is.

 

[seamonkey]

It's all in the cabinet designer's hands. Size of cones doesn't matter. Never did. It's still all marketing misdirection.
The actual measurements are what matters.

 

[fokof]

I use an RCF 12" sub wich I absolutely love , light ,small , powerful.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

But It doesn't go as deep as an 18".
(That's what my GF also say )

 

[shoot-r]

But It doesn't go as deep as an 18".

O.P. here.



To my ears that would be a good thing!
I'd probably love your ART 12" loaded subs.
If they keep the low end tight and as mud free as the EAW sub cabinets did I KNOW I'd love them!


Played a outdoor, large area, job last night with furnished FOH.
The stage was a large, wooden, open underneath set-up.
Sound Co. had two subs on each side of the stage, all JBL cabinets, each loaded with two 18" JBL drivers.
Total of 8 - 18's running for lows.
The usual mud and flub was present.
After hearing the 12" driver loaded subs from last week the whole band agreed the 18's sounded like mud, (as they always seem too to our ears no matter who the sound company is.)


Next week we're working with a sound co. that we've worked with many times in the past.
They run all 15" driver loaded sub cabinets.
I don't off-hand recall the manufacturer.
If memory serves, last time they we're using 8-15's on each side of the stage.
The low end has never made me smile, always boomy but not quite as muddy as 18's.
I've never been happy with my bass or the bass drum sound they get from 15's anymore than I've been with 18's.

We're working with the sound co. that uses the EAW 12" loaded subs again in Sept.
It'll be on a different stage from before.
We'll see if my attention is gotten again..........(or if it's all in my head!)

 

[fokof]

Couple of things to consider ;

-If you judge the subs by listening to the FOH while on stage ,you're not in a very good place to make a judgement.
Low frequencies being omni , you're hearing only the low end part of the mix only and if it is a bit loud , your perception of "mud" is because of where you stand.

- In capable hands , 18" subs will always perform better than 12" equivalent.
(if you compare same brand/serie)
12" will always need a LOT more power and will never be able to compete in the lower octave.



That being said : I absolutely love my 12" sub as my bass monitor.

 

[DonaldR]

We play with the drummer's PA consisting of 2x NX55P and on LS701P sub (2x10"). I go direct using a Peavey Alpha bass tube preamp and really like the punch and tightness of the low-end, much really like my own amp.

 

[dheafey]

12" will always need a LOT more power and will never be able to compete in the lower octave.

I would agree for a direct radiator design, but I've experienced some 12" speakers in folded horns that could get stupid loud with very little power.

 

[fokof]

I agree in the 50-100hz range.

 

[moody]

Really a lot depends on how the engineer uses the equipment. A lot have this idea that they have a loud pounding sub and they therefore have to use it. They also seem to have the idea that the Kick must be the most dominant thing in a mix.

All I can say is that it is called 'Sound Reinforcement' for a reason. My job if I run sound for my band is to take the sound of the band and make it louder, not make an entirely new sound out of the kick drum.

 

[walterw]

I'm used to the usual mud of 18" drivers in the subs

He floored me by telling me each sub had two 12" drivers in each.

He felt he could keep the 12" drivers tighter than he ever could 18's.

Truly made a believer out of me!

totally not about 18s vs 12s, but rather about EAWs whatever cheaper brands you were used to hearing, and about whoever was mixing those 18s to sound muddy.

 

[Chris 'Wighat' Jordan]

There are two misconceptions being promoted in this thread:

1) driver size determines clarity (or mud or lack there of)

2) driver size affects low frequency capability

Both incorrect.

 

[walterw]

[misconception] 2) driver size affects low frequency capability

two 12s at about 223 sq inches total area are not far off from an 18 at about 255 square inches, and the pair of 12s have the advantage of being driven by twice as many voice coils; it really is all about the design of the speakers and the cab, and about the chops of the guy mixing the whole thing.

 

[shoot-r]

Really a lot depends on how the engineer uses the equipment. A lot have this idea that they have a loud pounding sub and they therefore have to use it. They also seem to have the idea that the Kick must be the most dominant thing in a mix.

All I can say is that it is called 'Sound Reinforcement' for a reason. My job if I run sound for my band is to take the sound of the band and make it louder, not make an entirely new sound out of the kick drum.

O.P. here..........

After a lot of consideration about everyone's replies to this thread, I think Moody "has it" as to what's happening on our live, furnished FOH, stages.

Some of the soundmen we work with believe their mixing the bass drum for a reggae band and not a new country band.


Thanks to all for your comments.........






..........

 

[fokof]

2) driver size affects low frequency capability

Both incorrect.

Well , in my 35 years in the business I have yet to hear a single 12" which have as much low end as a single 18" , considering same design/maker/serie/quality etc...

Of course if you compare a badly designed or cheapo 18" to a stellar 12" , there will not be much differences but if you compare similar quality and same company/product , 18" will ALWAYS be more efficient in the lowest range.

Like others said , more surface.....


As an example , check these three models , same maker , same series , same cabinet design , a Invalid Link Removed, a Invalid Link Removed and a Invalid Link Removed
the 18 " has a lower response , that's normal ....

Compare apples with apples

 

[Chris 'Wighat' Jordan]

Well , in my 35 years in the business I have yet to hear a single 12" which have as much low end as a single 18" , considering same design/maker/serie/quality etc...

Of course if you compare a badly designed or cheapo 18" to a stellar 12" , there will not be much differences but if you compare similar quality and same company/product , 18" will ALWAYS be more efficient in the lowest range.

Like others said , more surface.....


As an example , check these three models , same maker , same series , same cabinet design , a Invalid Link Removed, a Invalid Link Removed and a Invalid Link Removed
the 18 " has a lower response , that's normal ....

Compare apples with apples

Well of course a single 18 will be louder than a single 12 of the same par. Interestingly you can take that very same twelve, increase the excursion and it outperforms the 18.

My point is there is nothing about a speaker's size that limits its ability to reproduce lower frequencies. An example was made by someone else in an earlier post in this thread: two 12's have close to the same surface area as an 18. Add a third 12 and - all other things being equal- that 12"-driver-based cabinet would be much more efficient than the 18-based cabinet.

 

[seamonkey]

Manufacturers like to come out with different size driver boxes so they appear to be offering different choices to their consumers. It's all bunk, driver size is just one marketing spew they throw at an average consumer that they think the consumer can compare. It's not, just like you never see magnet weight advertised anymore i.e. neo drivers can kick some heavy ceramic magnet butts, and they practically weight a fraction of the weight.

It all has to do with driver design and cabinet design. Driver size is drivel.
Here's an example of a Bill Fitzmaurice using a common 12" 2012lf versus a Mackie/EAW 18" design

FOH is pro gear, make those manufacturers publish measured charts on their different cabinet offerings. Buy by honest measurements and not driver size and other hype.