15/6 Tube

[cflat]

How did you get 2k into a YBA300?

in Canada it comes out to about 1800 useless Canabucks with assorted taxes from Long and McQuade, and another 100+ in tubes US bucks..so 1900 and a bit

 

[Jim Carr]

in Canada it comes out to about 1800 useless Canabucks with assorted taxes from Long and McQuade, and another 100+ in tubes US bucks..so 1900 and a bit

Not unreasonable, but I can really sympathize with your frustration about lacking clean power. I would also suggest finding a 12/12/6/1 and testing the Traynor head with that 4 ohm cabinet.

Even though the head has been modified to run safely at 8 ohms, is it actually producing full power at 8 ohms? I realize tube heads behave differently, but surely the laws of physics (and Ohm's) still apply?

 

[Jim Carr]

...I have also disconnected the tweeter and am running the Lpad on the mid driver...that helped somewhat.
...at a not very loud gig I was running the amp gain about a third of the way, and master volume about half, and was getting more distortion than I like...

I generally try to run the gain on my Prodigy as low as possible, and the master pretty near max. Obviously they are different in many ways, but they do seem to share a lack of clean head room in certain situations.

Back in april I messaged 'vbchaos' on here as he was having the same problem, and had stopped using the amp..Just yesterday I got A reply which was interesting--Quote "
Problem with the combination of the YBA300 and a fEARful was (for me) that the YBA has not enough clean power. The tube break-up comes quite early (which is part of the design), but the fEARfuls handle distortion very differently than any cab you might know (that is because you have a 2-way system).

When I pushed the Amp the only thing that really got harder was the harmonics in the mid-range speaker, while the body of the sound wasn't there. I discussed this on the fEARful forum through and through. It was not for nothing that Dave Green designed the 15/6 TUBE. The 15inch speakers have a better SPL at same power input. The 12s just do not move enough air on low Watts."..he also went on to mention that he had used the amp with other cabs and it was fine...

So I really don't know at this point if it is an intolerable coupling of amp/cab, or this is strictly a problem with the cab breaking up quite early and that mid driver really accentuates that?

Try any 15/6/1—it need not be a TUBE. As I'm sure you know, the TUBE dimensions are merely an aesthetic form factor to better fit the size of wide (tube) heads.

Do you have the True 3-way crossovers?

Might also add, I like the sound of the Prodigy much better through the 12/12/6/1, as compared to my 12/6/1. Much cleaner and louder.

 

[Wasnex]

Thank you, I was wondering that myself..Seeing as vbchaos indicated this amp sounded fine with other more generic cabs, I really don't know at this point if I blew 2000 bucks on this amp or its a speaker problem.

IMHO you are just expecting too much from a single 12/6 and a 300W amp. You have a compound problem as you have a relatively inefficient speaker and a moderately powerful amp. You have some great gear, but it's not meeting your needs. Don't feel too bad about it, as you can find threads where people have the exact same problem with a higher-powered solid state amp pushing a single 12/6. A 12/6 is a great sounding cab, but it is not particularly loud, even when pushed to it's limit.

If you want loud and want to stay with the 12/6, you need more of them. I am sure a pair of fEARful 12/6s with a pair of 12 Subs would get you in the ball park. Course you would have to reconnect your amp's 2 ohm tap.

As I mentioned earlier, the woofer (3015LF) used in the 15/6 and 15 Sub has almost a 3dB higher sensitivity rating than the woofer (3012LF) used in the 12/6. As you may know, when you double power, you assume the volume will increase by 3dB, so simply trading your 12/6 for a 15/6 will be noticeably louder. Add a 15 sub and you get another 3dB. This would essentially be equivalent output to the pair of 12/6s and 12 Subs I mentioned a few paragraphs back.

In my experience 300W is typically plenty of power for just about any situation as long as you use a speaker system with a high enough sensitivity rating. I suggest you try your amp with some other speakers to make sure it's healthy. I believe you will find it is. Then you need to decide how committed you are to the fEARless experience. I'm sure they are awesome, but there is some truth to the sentiment that you need a big solid state amp to extract the maximum potential these cabs have to offer. If you decide you want to stick with fEARful, you need more than a single 12/6, and you may want to consider trading in your YBA300 for a high-powered solid state amp since you apparently need high SPL.

 

[Jim Carr]

...If you want loud and want to stay with the 12/6, you need more of them. I am sure a pair of fEARful 12/6s with a pair of 12 Subs would get you in the ball park...

Do you really think @cflat needs 4 3012LFs and two 18sound 6" mid-drivers? Yikes. Why not just a couple of 3012LFs and one 18sound mid-driver? Two mid drivers seems like a lot. Isn't he already padding the single mid-driver?

Needless to say, I haven't done any math to check this...

 

[Wasnex]

Not unreasonable, but I can really sympathize with your frustration about lacking clean power. I would also suggest finding a 12/12/6/1 and testing the Traynor head with that 4 ohm cabinet.

Even though the head has been modified to run safely at 8 ohms, is it actually producing full power at 8 ohms? I realize tube heads behave differently, but surely the laws of physics (and Ohm's) still apply?

If it's modified to run on 8 ohms, it most likely means it has three OT taps (2,4,8 ohms). You basically choose which two taps are connected and tape the third tap off inside the chassis. My Aguilar DB359 is the same way, except it was setup from the factor with 4 and 8 ohm taps connected and the 2 ohm tap taped up in the chassis.

 

[cflat]

Not unreasonable, but I can really sympathize with your frustration about lacking clean power. I would also suggest finding a 12/12/6/1 and testing the Traynor head with that 4 ohm cabinet.

Even though the head has been modified to run safely at 8 ohms, is it actually producing full power at 8 ohms? I realize tube heads behave differently, but surely the laws of physics (and Ohm's) still apply?

..Well not 100% sure..It's a factory mod , even labeled on a circuit board...its plenty loud..

 

[cflat]

I generally try to run the gain on my Prodigy as low as possible, and the master pretty near max. Obviously they are different in many ways, but they do seem to share a lack of clean head room in certain situations.



Try any 15/6/1—it need not be a TUBE. As I'm sure you know, the TUBE dimensions are merely an aesthetic form factor to better fit the size of wide (tube) heads.

Do you have the True 3-way crossovers?

Might also add, I like the sound of the Prodigy much better through the 12/12/6/1, as compared to my 12/6/1. Much cleaner and louder.

Oh interesting,,I have run it thru 2 cabs, the other a 2x10. It was better...yes I have the 3 crossover, but have disconnected the high driver..useless.

 

[Wasnex]

Do you really think @cflat needs 4 3012LFs and two 18sound 6" mid-drivers? Yikes. Why not just a couple of 3012LFs and one 18sound mid-driver? Two mid drivers seems like a lot. Isn't he already padding the single mid-driver?

Needless to say, I haven't done any math to check this...

Ultimately I am not recommending anything since I don't know how loud the OP needs to play.

Depends on how much SPL is needed. You have said a 12/12/6 is not enough in some applications, so two 12/12/6s doesn't seem too unreasonable....a 12/12/6 is essentially a 12/6 and a 12 Sub combined into one cabinet. Hopefully you follow my logic, I.E. 12/6, Sub, 12/6, Sub = a pair of 12/12/6s.

If @cflat is committed to using fEARfuls, I think he would be better off going with 3015LF based cabs. A 15/6 and 15 Sub should be pretty much equivalent to two 12/12/6s as far as SPL.

 

[cflat]

IMHO you are just expecting too much from a single 12/6 and a 300W amp. You have a compound problem as you have a relatively inefficient speaker and a moderately powerful amp. You have some great gear, but it's not meeting your needs. Don't feel too bad about it, as you can find threads where people have the exact same problem with a higher-powered solid state amp pushing a single 12/6. A 12/6 is a great sounding cab, but it is not particularly loud, even when pushed to it's limit.

It's pretty darn loud for most of what I use it for...For big stages I add another 2x10 cab...I have been running it for several years with a Genz Benz shuttlemax 9.2, so plenty of power. Very clean but i have a good tube preamp to grit it up a bit.

As I mentioned earlier, the woofer (3015LF) used in the 15/6 and 15 Sub has almost a 3dB higher sensitivity rating than the woofer (3012LF) used in the 12/6. As you may know, when you double power, you assume the volume will increase by 3dB, so simply trading your 12/6 for a 15/6 will be noticeably louder. Add a 15 sub and you get another 3dB. This would essentially be equivalent output to the pair of 12/6s and 12 Subs I mentioned a few paragraphs back.

Perhaps a 15 sub would do it...not too expensive..I hate to go back down the black hole of speaker cabs and blow my retirement fund.

 

[cflat]

Do you really think @cflat needs 4 3012LFs and two 18sound 6" mid-drivers? Yikes. Why not just a couple of 3012LFs and one 18sound mid-driver? Two mid drivers seems like a lot. Isn't he already padding the single mid-driver?

Needless to say, I haven't done any math to check this...

yes i think 2 mid drivers is overkill..those suckers are loud.

 

[cflat]

If it's modified to run on 8 ohms, it most likely means it has three OT taps (2,4,8 ohms). You basically choose which two taps are connected and tape the third tap off inside the chassis. My Aguilar DB359 is the same way, except it was setup from the factor with 4 and 8 ohm taps connected and the 2 ohm tap taped up in the chassis.

yes i assume it does as it comes from factory that way.

 

[cflat]

Ultimately I am not recommending anything since I don't know how loud the OP needs to play.

Depends on how much SPL is needed. You have said a 12/12/6 is not enough in some applications, so two 12/12/6s doesn't seem too unreasonable....a 12/12/6 is essentially a 12/6 and a 12 Sub combined into one cabinet. Hopefully you follow my logic, I.E. 12/6, Sub, 12/6, Sub = a pair of 12/12/6s.

If @cflat is committed to using fEARfuls, I think he would be better off going with 3015LF based cabs. A 15/6 and 15 Sub should be pretty much equivalent to two 12/12/6s as far as SPL.

Well I don't have to be super loud in most situations, but it is a rock band, and to get my desired level of stage volume for myself, the big tuber is entering too far into OD mode. That's my dilemma.

 

[Wasnex]

It's pretty darn loud for most of what I use it for...For big stages I add another 2x10 cab...I have been running it for several years with a Genz Benz shuttlemax 9.2, so plenty of power. Very clean but i have a good tube preamp to grit it up a bit.

Perhaps a 15 sub would do it...not too expensive..I hate to go back down the black hole of speaker cabs and blow my retirement fund.

A Shuttlemax 9.2 is rated for 500W at 8 ohms, which is what the 12/6 is spec'ed for. The 12/6 is rated to produce 122dB at 500W.

If you can't get the 12/6 loud enough with the YBA300, confirm the amp is healthy. If it is, you need another speaker.

I don't recommend randomly depleting your retirement. Best to try before you buy if you can.

 

[Jim Carr]

...You have said a 12/12/6 is not enough in some applications, so two 12/12/6s doesn't seem too unreasonable...

The only time a 12/12/6/1 wasn't working out was when the Prodigy was driving it with an upright equipped with a Krivo magnetic pickup. Also, I was new to the amp at the time and the venue was a very large club with a loud band and minimal or no PA support for the bass on stage.

With a Mesa d800 or a Crest ProLite, no problems. The d800 can run out of headroom with two 15/6/1 cabs, but then again, that is really overkill.

Bottom line is that I think the OP should try either adding a 15sub or consider building a 12/12/6/1 out of the parts he has for his 12/6/1.

 

[Wasnex]

The only time a 12/12/6/1 wasn't working out was when the Prodigy was driving it with an upright equipped with a Krivo magnetic pickup. Also, I was new to the amp at the time and the venue was a very large club with a loud band and minimal or no PA support for the bass on stage.

With a Mesa d800 or a Crest ProLite, no problems. The d800 can run out of headroom with two 15/6/1 cabs, but then again, that is really overkill.

Bottom line is that I think the OP should try either adding a 15sub or consider building a 12/12/6/1 out of the parts he has for his 12/6/1.

IMHO a 15 Sub is heading in the right direction. I have some Genz Benz 1288Ts which have a sensitivity rating of 97.5dB, which should be pretty similar to a fEARful 15/6. A pair of the 1288Ts will definitely make some noise with a 300W tube amp. My Greenboy Dually with Faital 15PR400s is noticeably louder, but it's not HiFi like the 1288Ts.