15/6 Tube

[CL400Peavey]

I am quite sure that fearful design cabs sound very good and have very good off axis response the only problem that I can see in low wattage tube amp terms.

If you look at average 15" speaker sensitivities, the 15/6 is right there. Are there more sensitive drivers out there? sure. But then we get back into the "what frequency range?" question. The beauty of the multiple driver system is that it lets you go very low, and very high, and when done right there isnt a compromise in sensitivity.

 

[Bassmec]

If you look at average 15" speaker sensitivities, the 15/6 is right there. Are there more sensitive drivers out there? sure. But then we get back into the "what frequency range?" question. The beauty of the multiple driver system is that it lets you go very low, and very high, and when done right there isnt a compromise in sensitivity.

Well as we agree there are more sensitive drivers out there, the statement "and when done right there isn't a compromise in sensitivity" should read
When done right there isn't much of a compromise in sensitivity because
You are not going to gain sensitivity with a passive crossover with a low pass filter over applying the speaker cable direct to the driver. science don't work that way.
The serious advantages of the fearful design are the phenomenal low frequency displacement at very high power for a given sized enclosure and the fantastically low weight.
Thus this is certainly the cab for the big power amp and sans amp crew,
Is it the best cab for an Ampeg v4b in a rock band with moderately loud drums though.
Only if you have a very bad back is the only scientific answer I can think of.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Well as we agree there are more sensitive drivers out there, the statement "and when done right there isn't a compromise in sensitivity" should read
When done right there isn't much of a compromise in sensitivity because
You are not going to gain sensitivity with a passive crossover with a low pass filter over applying the speaker cable direct to the driver. science don't work that way.
The serious advantages of the fearful design are the phenomenal low frequency displacement at very high power for a given sized enclosure and the fantastically low weight.
Thus this is certainly the cab for the big power amp and sans amp crew,
Is it the best cab for an Ampeg v4b in a rock band with moderately loud drums though.
Only if you have a very bad back is the only scientific answer I can think of.

or once again you go back to the fact, as I have said, it sounds good. My cab is rated somewhere around 1,500 watts. With an amp that is rated at 350w at 4 Ohms I can burry my drummer really easily. With my 400w tube head I can hang with any band. With my pre/power rack rig I can play just about any venue.

Would a 100 watt tube head be enough through any cab? Depends on how loud the band is. That holds true for any amp or cab out there.

What I can tell you is the fEARful cabs sound good regardless of the amp, as long as you are sending them a signal that sounds good.

 

[Bassmec]

or once again you go back to the fact, as I have said, it sounds good. My cab is rated somewhere around 1,500 watts. With an amp that is rated at 350w at 4 Ohms I can burry my drummer really easily. With my 400w tube head I can hang with any band. With my pre/power rack rig I can play just about any venue.

Would a 100 watt tube head be enough through any cab? Depends on how loud the band is. That holds true for any amp or cab out there.

What I can tell you is the fEARful cabs sound good regardless of the amp, as long as you are sending them a signal that sounds good.

I agree with all this they do sound great and have excellent dispersion
There isn't anything better in those respects at all.
But there is still room for the horses for courses view fearfuls are not a universal panacea for all i'lls, just most of them I will accept.

 

[CL400Peavey]

I agree with all this they do sound great and have excellent dispersion
There isn't anything better in those respects at all.
But there is still room for the horses for courses view fearfuls are not a universal panacea for all i'lls, just most of them I will accept.

+1

Not going to be for everyone, but IMHO they will sound good regardless of the amp you use, as long as you like what the amp does.

 

[BassmanPaul]

I bought my first Acme LowB2. Dozen of members warned that I would need at least 500-1000 watts to run that cab. .

I hope you didn't "underpower" it! Another of the myths - that surround Acme.

I own four but just use a pair at a time. With a maximum power of 325W into each they're as loud as I ever need to be. I'm not one of the "stay in the background" sort of guy either.

 

[derridiandrift]

Do you use it with your V4B?
I wanted a 151566 to use with my 100T but I read they need a lot of power to sound good.

Ya, the V4BH and the LDS cab are like a matched pair now. I've used them together as a "small rig" for over a year and it's pretty fantastic. I was pretty unimpressed with the LDS cab at first, but it took some time for me to figure out how to set the attenuators and how to eq the amp.

The fEarful 15/6 tube lives in the rehearsal space for one of the bands I work with. It's an ugly, unfinished cab, but functionally it's all there.

 

[derridiandrift]

Is it the best cab for an Ampeg v4b in a rock band with moderately loud drums though.
Only if you have a very bad back is the only scientific answer I can think of.

Apologies in advance for the long post...


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's anywhere near the ballpark of my SVT+810 rig. I was just giving a general response to the question. The rig sounds good. I think of it as an overgrown B15.

Here's a more detailed description of how I use that rig, if it helps to paint a more clear picture...

My sound is not clean, but has a bit of grit. I play 4 string passive fenders through an EBS compressor into the V4BH. I typically run the amp just below the point that it has nothing more to give without turning into full-on dirt, which is right where it sounds the best (for my applications). The band is a trio+singer setup. The guitar player uses a twin. He's loud on stage, but very aware of fitting his tone into mine. The drummer is not the hardest hitter I've ever worked with, but he still plays the tunes like he means it. We're a loud rock band, and the other guys insist on a very "bass-forward" stage mix. I think this little rig sounds really good on stage. Maybe someone who lives nearby can come out to a gig and offer a second opinion.

I've only played the V4BH+15/6/1 in rooms with full production, so take that into account... I'm not suggesting I can fill the room with that setup.

Also, the amp is in fine form. My tech guy swapped out the lower wattage 5881s for 6L6GC power tubes and biased it (obviously) which was a pretty drastic change. It may or may not work for you, but it works just fine for me and I don't feel like I'm sacrificing volume.

 

[Bassmec]

Apologies in advance for the long post...


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's anywhere near the ballpark of my SVT+810 rig. I was just giving a general response to the question. The rig sounds good. I think of it as an overgrown B15.

Here's a more detailed description of how I use that rig, if it helps to paint a more clear picture...

My sound is not clean, but has a bit of grit. I play 4 string passive fenders through an EBS compressor into the V4BH. I typically run the amp just below the point that it has nothing more to give without turning into full-on dirt, which is right where it sounds the best (for my applications). The band is a trio+singer setup. The guitar player uses a twin. He's loud on stage, but very aware of fitting his tone into mine. The drummer is not the hardest hitter I've ever worked with, but he still plays the tunes like he means it. We're a loud rock band, and the other guys insist on a very "bass-forward" stage mix. I think this little rig sounds really good on stage. Maybe someone who lives nearby can come out to a gig and offer a second opinion.

I've only played the V4BH+15/6/1 in rooms with full production, so take that into account... I'm not suggesting I can fill the room with that setup.

Also, the amp is in fine form. My tech guy swapped out the lower wattage 5881s for 6L6GC power tubes and biased it (obviously) which was a pretty drastic change. It may or may not work for you, but it works just fine for me and I don't feel like I'm sacrificing volume.

The cabinet that came with the amp originally had a pair of Altec 421 and was horn loaded to about 60Hz so the efficiency of the original cab was >+3dB due to the coupling effect and the horn loading north of the following figures:
Invalid Link Removed
sorry it's a bit of a poor picture but I think you can read it.
Yes the original cab was a monster and weighed a ton you could have used it as a boat in case of flood or even get buried in it.
But let's not get totally fearful for everything carried away, cos I wasn't born yesterday!.
PS did sombody quote me an SPL based on the 15" driver performance without insertion loss.
Because I believed this rumour to have some truth in it:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/37601-db-loss-using-passive-crossovers-active-vs-passive-1st-vs-4th-order.html
Remember BFM he might be a bit optimistic here but it ain't nothing to mention. When tube watts and headroom are so expensive.

 

[CL400Peavey]

The cabinet that came with the amp originally had a pair of Altec 421 and was horn loaded to about 60Hz so the efficiency of the original cab was >+3dB due to the coupling effect and the horn loading north of the following figures:

sorry it's a bit of a poor picture but I think you can read it.
Yes the original cab was a monster and weighed a ton you could have used it as a boat in case of flood or even get buried in it.
But let's not get totally fearful for everything carried away, cos I wasn't born yesterday!.
PS did sombody quote me an SPL based on the 15" driver performance without insertion loss.
Because I believed this rumour to have some truth in it:
[URL="http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/37601-db-loss-using-passive-crossovers-active-vs-passive-1st-vs-4th-order.html"]http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/37601-db-loss-using-passive-crossovers-active-vs-passive-1st-vs-4th-order.html[/URL]
Remember BFM he might be a bit optimistic here but it ain't nothing to mention. When tube watts and headroom are so expensive.[/QUOTE]

And you continue to miss the point. His set sounds good, therefore it is good. There more efficient cab, but there are other trade offs. There is no law stating that tube heads must be paired with the most efficient speakers possible.

 

[hdracer]

I hate to derail this thread (but I have to)

I'm running two TL-606's with 3015 non LF speakers with my Bassman 100T.
I wouldn't mind having the 6" mid drivers.

What would I be gaining and loosing going to a 151566?

I want a 215 just for easier moving around.

 

[Bmorefoozler]

And you continue to miss the point. His set sounds good, therefore it is good. There more efficient cab, but there are other trade offs. There is no law stating that tube heads must be paired with the most efficient speakers possible.

In fact I know a lot of people that wish guitar players looked for INsensitivbe speakers on purpose. It can be desireable to have a low sensitivity speaker which allows you to get to the sweetspot of your preferred amp at a more reasonable volume.

For example, JImmyM uses a VT bass to get dirty tones from his SVT/810. Not to speak for him, but perhaps he would enjoy a 4x10 that could take all of that power and produce his desired tone at a volume level 3 db or more lower.

 

[Bassmec]

I hate to derail this thread (but I have to)

I'm running two TL-606's with 3015 non LF speakers with my Bassman 100T.
I wouldn't mind having the 6" mid drivers.

What would I be gaining and loosing going to a 151566?

I want a 215 just for easier moving around.

I was asking exactly that but they won't tell me.
But -1dB in average sensitivity and whatever they will admit too
In insertion loss, not a lot really what you will gain is a far better midrange dispersion and tone and agility and if you had the power
which you don't by far, far better VLF bass response.

 

[derridiandrift]

I hate to derail this thread (but I have to)

I'm running two TL-606's with 3015 non LF speakers with my Bassman 100T.
I wouldn't mind having the 6" mid drivers.

What would I be gaining and loosing going to a 151566?

I want a 215 just for easier moving around.

I feel like I've taken over this thread.

I'll respond to the comment about the Ampeg 2x15 cabs from the 70s with Altec drivers...

My V4BH is a reissue head from the St. Louis Music era. It has very little in common with the 70s V4B except perhaps the power rating and the name. It's essentially a lower powered SVT-CL to my ears. Presumably, it was designed to be used with Ampeg's line of SVT cabs from the same era... 15EN, 210EN, 410HE, 410HLF, 610HLF, 810E. The big logistical difference is that the V4BH has 4 and 8 ohm taps while the SVT-CL, AV, and VR have 2 and 4 ohm taps. [DEL]Regardless, your comment about the Altec loaded cabs doesn't relate to how well this amp sounds with my LDS 15/6/1 cab.[/DEL] They are as different, or perhaps more so, as the V4B and the reissue V4BH.

[edit: I think I get what you're saying with the Altec cabs. Yes they are heavy (I have an 810, so I know heavy). Yes they had more sensitive drivers, so they will go louder for each watt. I suppose my answer to your claim that 15/6/1 and a 100 watt tube amp won't be loud enough is that my experience defies your claim, generally between three and fifteen times a month. I'm being utterly unscientific, for sure, but I'm a musician, not a scientist. I like what I hear from my rig, it's loud enough for my rock band situation, but I can't even begin to cite a scientific reason for why it's loud enough, and why it sounds great. I'm simply not qualified in that area. If you're ever travelling near me, get in touch and we'll have a few pints. You can hear it for yourself.]


TL-606 cab...

I've used that cab with an EV driver. My cab was so absurdly heavy that I switched to an Eden D410XLT back in the 90s. Maybe yours are not built as stupidly heavy as mine was. Tonally, I think you'd be very pleased with a 15/15/6 in a fEarful design. The big difference, for me, is being able to hear the mids off axis from the cab, and the surprisingly even response. It was the work that the 6" driver does that took me some time to get used to. Comparing the fEarful to the TL-606, I think you'll be shocked at how much of the midrange program you're not hearing right now. The 6 makes a big difference.

Also, I have to wonder if you'll eventually get a higher powered amp. As much as I love my 100 watt Ampeg, I have an SVT as well, so the V4BH is not the solution for all of my gigs. When you eventually buy that 300T (because you know you will) the 15/15/6 will be a one-cab loud rock band solution.

 

[hdracer]

My Tl-606's have 3015's in them and the Passinwind port mods. They weigh 42 pounds each. I like them a lot. The only thing I would ask for it better midrange and a single cab instead of 2 cabs.
I sold my big head because my 100T does everything I need.
I guess I am just going to have to try it through a fEARful at the next GTG. It is hard to judge a amp and cab at GTG's because there is always 10 or more guys with their rigs dimed.

 

[rpsands]

With a 1515/66, the 100watts will be quite loud, but not earbustingly so unless you're ok with it being dirty.

I use a 300w tube head and find it's right around at the limits for my practice room, but I turn down quite a bit on gigs.

I've seen a guy using a much dirtier tone through my rig, with a ~160-180 watt Sunn tube head, and it was plenty loud enough, just kinda gritty.

 

[derridiandrift]

My Tl-606's have 3015's in them and the Passinwind port mods. They weigh 42 pounds each. I like them a lot. The only thing I would ask for it better midrange and a single cab instead of 2 cabs.
I sold my big head because my 100T does everything I need.
I guess I am just going to have to try it through a fEARful at the next GTG. It is hard to judge a amp and cab at GTG's because there is always 10 or more guys with their rigs dimed.

I can never make a reasonable judgement on any gear unless it's at a gig, so I'm with you on that. Some guys can. I need to have it on a loud stage for a set in order to understand what any piece of gear is going to do.

I think you should make the move to 15/15/6 because if you like what you have now, you'll like 15s with a 6 even more, plus, like you said, it's easier to move around. The only thing you might want to consider is an HPF because the fEarful might be reproducing low frequencies you don't want. Its LF response is extended compared to what you're probably used to. You can always add the HPF to your rig later if you find you need it.

 

[Bassmec]

My Tl-606's have 3015's in them and the Passinwind port mods. They weigh 42 pounds each. I like them a lot. The only thing I would ask for it better midrange and a single cab instead of 2 cabs.
I sold my big head because my 100T does everything I need.
I guess I am just going to have to try it through a fEARful at the next GTG. It is hard to judge a amp and cab at GTG's because there is always 10 or more guys with their rigs dimed.

Dropping a 3015" -3dB and going with the sole 15/6 fearful will instantly make your fender bassman 100 a fender bassman 50 in equivalent loudness or even slightly less by the reduced 3015lf sensitivity and the crossover insertion loss unless you remove some pad and make the crossover mid forward to use more of the six inch drivers efficiency.
You will probably feel at home because run full range the 3015 has a honk in the upper mid graph that would strangle a goose, that's kind of why they don't want you to hear it's even more mid radical LF brother in a fearful above 800Hz. Very wise they are too.

 

[hdracer]

With a 1515/66, the 100watts will be quite loud, but not earbustingly so unless you're ok with it being dirty.

I use a 300w tube head and find it's right around at the limits for my practice room, but I turn down quite a bit on gigs.

I've seen a guy using a much dirtier tone through my rig, with a ~160-180 watt Sunn tube head, and it was plenty loud enough, just kinda gritty.

That is what I want. I like some grit in my sound without being stupid loud. Is the Tube cab available in a 1515/66?
I was thinking of building a duel TL-606 with tilt back (well tilt side for easier door entry) this winter. I'm just not sure if the extra expense would be worth it with my amp.

 

[Bassmec]

That is what I want. I like some grit in my sound without being stupid loud. Is the Tube cab available in a 1515/66?
I was thinking of building a duel TL-606 with tilt back (well tilt side for easier door entry) this winter. I'm just not sure if the extra expense would be worth it with my amp.

I think with a 1515/66 you will get a very much better off axis midrange response and an enormous improvement in midrange intelligibility especially if you use that JBL six inch cone driven plastic horn I have seen used in them, better time alignment too.
It's interesting that the recommended tube fearful has strangely precisely doubled in scale and weight (with the cognisant) since I asked a couple of pertinent questions.