1971 P bass value

[nostatic]

I have heard the Fender vs CBS story many times. It has become the stuff of legends.

Yet, I have yet to see a single piece of statistical evidence that preCBS guitars are any better.

There is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that Fender fell off the face of the Earth after being acquired. Yet, there is no verified evidence whatsoever.

When CBS bought Fender, they didn't fire everyone. Most of the pre and a post acquisition employees were the same. Did they forget how to do their job? Did they forget the process?

Probably not.

If post acquisition guitars are lower in quality, there has to be some sort of explanation.

Does anyone have any verifiable data?

I'm not a Fender historian - but as you say, the legend is what it is, and the market reflects it. That said, some of the best Fenders I ever played were built prior to the CBS buyout. While things didn't change over night, they did change as bean counters exerted more influence over production and there were design and material changes. And no doubt there was turnover on the production facilities.

I do know that I played a lot of 70's Fenders that weren't very good instruments. And I have played some that were great. My personal "hit rate" is higher with pre-CBS and also with anything post '08. The late 70's/early 80's are probably considered to lowest point of Fender, but production instruments in those days tended to be variable.

The reality is that due to CNC and other advances, production instruments made today are arguably better on all counts (certainly more consistent) that ever. But the imagined "good old days" will always command our memories and our money.

 

[nostatic]

Agree with the bulk of your assertions here, as Fodera construction techniques, materials, and exhaustive attention to details re playability should surpass any Fender ever made.

That said, a properly built (read; defect-free) Fender or Fender clone (Sad, Lull, etc) can be made to play exceedingly well, to the point that any discernible improvement beyond that will invoke the laws of diminishing returns in relation to the extra money spent. Nothing wrong with taking things to the nth degree, but at some point brand name cache kicks in where performance level drops off.

No doubt. Some boutiques command top dollar for a combination of higher production costs (e.g. labor and land costs for Fodera are significantly higher than Smith, MTD, etc) as well as "perceived value." Jason (one of the Fodera partners) is a smart guy, and he knows that pricing something too low can have a negative effect. At some point it is just a combination of wood and metal. But there are intangibles at play like history (grew up listening to Jamerson so have to have a Fender), a desire to support small independent builders over large conglomerates, wanting to associate with a brand that certain players endorse, etc. Those are all hard to quantify and put a price on.

Nice rides, btw.

Thanks. Totally different aesthetics and performance characteristics. The GS is composed, unflappable, fast, and will haul 2 of us as long as we want to go. The MV is quick and dramatic, demands your attention whether it is running or not.

Best thing about riding a motorcycle is that you have to be totally in the moment, and your cell phone doesn't exist (kind of like a good music gig). The downside is that everyone in a car is trying to kill you...

 

[Iridescentone]

Best thing about riding a motorcycle is that you have to be totally in the moment, and your cell phone doesn't exist (kind of like a good music gig). The downside is that everyone in a car is trying to kill you...

Tell me about it! I moved from Chicagoland to Colorado in '96 just for the spectacular world-class riding.

I almost bought a new GS in '98, but they are too heavy for any serious off-road riding that I might have done (prefer enduro bikes for that). Instead, I bought a R1100R "standard" and accessorized it a little bit for my needs. Solid machine, but not particularly fast and not the best handling in the twisties with its cantilever front end. I'm leaning towards a Honda ST for my next one (if they're still making them when I'm ready).

 

[nostatic]

Solid machine, but not particularly fast and not the best handling in the twisties with its cantilever front end.

[start thread hijack]

The GS isn't a great off-road machine as you note. Much better to have a purpose-built thumper. That said, I had an '08 GS for a number of years and we actually did some fire roads 2-up. That's an interesting ride, especially when you hit sand...

The new GS actually is quite adept on the road. The wasserboxer has enough torque and hp to scare you when you want, the suspension is predictable, and the ride-by-wire is well behaved. I can play in the canyons at the same speeds with much less drama than the MV. One reason I like the MV though - I can entertain myself and much more legal-ish speeds. The GS is my commuting/touring/zombie machine and in truth I could live with that as my only bike.

[/end thread hijack]

 

[Bass Viking]

The rule you're referring to is intended to prevent veiled for sale posts. That doesn't apply in this situation.

Wrong

Please elaborate?

 

[ajkula66]

Yet, I have yet to see a single piece of statistical evidence that preCBS guitars are any better.

I don't believe that issues of this nature can be addressed by statistics.

Have you ever played a pre-CBS Fender would be my first question?

When CBS bought Fender, they didn't fire everyone. Most of the pre and a post acquisition employees were the same. Did they forget how to do their job? Did they forget the process?

Probably not.

If post acquisition guitars are lower in quality, there has to be some sort of explanation.

Does anyone have any verifiable data?

The drop in QC hasn't really happened until almost a decade after the acquisition, IMO.

But the technology has changed, with the move from nitro to poly in '68 being one of the *really* big deals. For folks who believe that all the sound is in pickups and strings this event would be a non-issue. For others, myself included, it is.

You also have to consider the sheer numbers game. My old '64 Jazz had a serial which was a 5-digit starting in 3 after the letter L. Its '71 Tele Bass cousin had a 6-digit serial starting in 3. That's a lot of guitars within a roughly 7-year period, and by the mid 70s production went really high up and the quality control crew refused to return from its lunch break judging by many (read: thousands) of instruments from this era that went through my hands one way or another over the past four decades or so.

So since you seem to be keen on statistics, I'll point you towards the answer in that direction: one has a far lower chance of running into a junk pre-CBS Fender, than a CBS one. And it's not just a matter of quality, it's a matter of numbers as well.

Some of the 70s Fenders were great instruments, but there's a lot of leftover garbage from that era as well.

Quality-wise, the best Fender bass I've ever owned was an '83, but it also was a fairly unusual piece.

Now back to the subject matter of this thread...my unsolicited two cents would go along those lines:

OP, if you were really stricken by the bass as in "OMG this is the instrument of my life" go haggle and take it home afterwards, or you're likely to regret it. If not - move on - at least until the price of the bass in question comes down to the point which is palatable for you.

 

[nostatic]

OP, if you were really stricken by the bass as in "OMG this is the instrument of my life" go haggle and take it home afterwards, or you're likely to regret it. If not - move on - at least until the price of the bass in question comes down to the point which is palatable for you.

One strategy I've used is to take one of my basses with me to demo another instrument, then swap back and forth. That can be a reality check for an instrument that you dig in isolation but compared to something else falls down.

Or it could lead you to selling the bass you brought with you in the first place

 

[HOOLIGAN]

Please elaborate?

From:
""Whats it worth?" or "How much would you pay?" Threads!!!
To post a thread such as these you MUST be a supporting member. These types of threads should be posted in the forum for which they belong (ie; amps and related in Amps, basses in Basses, etc.) This policy covers and includes all sub-forums here at Talkbass.
The rule includes anything you are looking to buy, sell, or even on your current personal gear. Like has been mentioned, too many people have been skirting the rules and this one rule stops that.

BTW, there are plenty of other places someone can get an idea of what gear is worth if they are willing to just do a little searching. Ebay and the TB Classifieds are a good start and Google can bring up more sources. Ofcourse, the TB membership is the greatest source of all and I think a supporting membership is a small price for what you get in return here at Talkbass."

Note: The above is a quote from a sticky regarding forum rules, so no need to point out I'm not a supporting member.

 

[Wisebass]

As for the definition of vintage

if it is old and there is a Federlogo on it that can mean two things:

it is a player: (when it still plays and sounds good) (and of course it can also have sentimental value to us)

it is vintage ( a piece of old sh... collectors pay too much money for)

instruments should be for musicians only but....

may the bass be with you

Wise(b)ass

 

[beaglesandbass]

Nobody reads forum rules anymore eh?

Since listing something for sale in the classifieds is restricted to supporting members, but buying from them was open to any member I always assumed a similar logic applied to the restriction about asking valuation questions. Which is to say it only applied to something you owned and were thinking about selling or buying off the classifieds - not something you were merely wondering about buying, or you just saw somewhere else.

I don't see anything in the rules that specifically says one way or the other. The wording is a little vague. But my interpretation would be consistent with the TB classified rules which is where the rule you're alluding to is found:



I guess only an Admin could say for sure. But I think that rule was intended to apply more to one of those "feeler" posts rather than what the OP is asking.

The rule you're referring to is intended to prevent veiled for sale posts. That doesn't apply in this situation.

Wrong

From:
""Whats it worth?" or "How much would you pay?" Threads!!!
To post a thread such as these you MUST be a supporting member. These types of threads should be posted in the forum for which they belong (ie; amps and related in Amps, basses in Basses, etc.) This policy covers and includes all sub-forums here at Talkbass.
The rule includes anything you are looking to buy, sell, or even on your current personal gear. Like has been mentioned, too many people have been skirting the rules and this one rule stops that.

BTW, there are plenty of other places someone can get an idea of what gear is worth if they are willing to just do a little searching. Ebay and the TB Classifieds are a good start and Google can bring up more sources. Ofcourse, the TB membership is the greatest source of all and I think a supporting membership is a small price for what you get in return here at Talkbass."

Note: The above is a quote from a sticky regarding forum rules, so no need to point out I'm not a supporting member.

The rule was designed to avoid thinly veiled for sale threads like "hey i found this bass in my attic and i'm not really sure what to do with it, is it worth anything?" The "how much would you pay" wording was designed for a similar scenario "i have xx bass in yy condition how much would you pay for it?"

A member asking the community about a bass they might buy is 100% within the rules. We do this so the community can help avoid people possibly getting ripped off.

If the wording of a rule is confusing and you have a way to make it better, please start a thread in the suggestion box and it will be looked at.

In the future, if you believe posts are against the rules, there is a "report" button at the bottom of every post. Please use that rather than start your own side discussion in the thread.

 

[beaglesandbass]

I wouldn't pay 2k for it. I can't say with absolutely certainty, but I think as a whole, the 70s era Fenders weren't as good as the 60s. so for a little more money you could probabaly find one from the 60s.

 

[40Hz]

The rule was designed to avoid thinly veiled for sale threads like "hey i found this bass in my attic and i'm not really sure what to do with it, is it worth anything?" The "how much would you pay" wording was designed for a similar scenario "i have xx bass in yy condition how much would you pay for it?"

A member asking the community about a bass they might buy is 100% within the rules. We do this so the community can help avoid people possible getting ripped off.

If the wording of a rule is confusing and you have a way to make it better, please start a thread in the suggestion box and it will be looked at.

In the future, if you believe posts are against the rules, there is a "report" button at the bottom of every post. Please use that rather than start your own side discussion in the thread.

Well there you have it folks. That seems clear enough.

@Bob Clayton - thanks for the reminder about the suggestion box. I'd forgotten there was one.

 

[12BitSlab]

I don't believe that issues of this nature can be addressed by statistics.

Have you ever played a pre-CBS Fender would be my first question?



The drop in QC hasn't really happened until almost a decade after the acquisition, IMO.

But the technology has changed, with the move from nitro to poly in '68 being one of the *really* big deals. For folks who believe that all the sound is in pickups and strings this event would be a non-issue. For others, myself included, it is.

You also have to consider the sheer numbers game. My old '64 Jazz had a serial which was a 5-digit starting in 3 after the letter L. Its '71 Tele Bass cousin had a 6-digit serial starting in 3. That's a lot of guitars within a roughly 7-year period, and by the mid 70s production went really high up and the quality control crew refused to return from its lunch break judging by many (read: thousands) of instruments from this era that went through my hands one way or another over the past four decades or so.

So since you seem to be keen on statistics, I'll point you towards the answer in that direction: one has a far lower chance of running into a junk pre-CBS Fender, than a CBS one. And it's not just a matter of quality, it's a matter of numbers as well.

Some of the 70s Fenders were great instruments, but there's a lot of leftover garbage from that era as well.

Quality-wise, the best Fender bass I've ever owned was an '83, but it also was a fairly unusual piece.

Now back to the subject matter of this thread...my unsolicited two cents would go along those lines:

OP, if you were really stricken by the bass as in "OMG this is the instrument of my life" go haggle and take it home afterwards, or you're likely to regret it. If not - move on - at least until the price of the bass in question comes down to the point which is palatable for you.

Thank you!

You are the first person that I have ever encountered who posted something cogent re: pre and post CBS stuff and much of what you makes sense. Again, thank you!

I do have experience with pre and post CBS basses -- EXTREMELY limited! I started off with a late 50's Precision bass that I traded for a Epi (I was young and VERY stupid). I got rid of the Epi for a '75 Jazz bass. Overall, I thought my Jazz bass was far better built. But, my experience is so limited that there is no way to draw a conclusion at all.

 

[bigtone23]

My 2 cents.
I have played a few 70-73 P and J basses and found them to be mostly good. As the decade wore on, the odds of a good one dropped. I have a 72 Jazz that I love.
I think $2900 is steep for that bass. $2000 +/- $200 is more on point.
Guitar Center has a similar 71 that isn't as worn, changed pots and $2200.

 

[mellowinman]

Nobody reads forum rules anymore eh?

Reading and understanding are sometimes two different things.

 

[timber22]

One thing that makes this one desirable IMO (although still maybe overpriced) is that the OP said it's just a little over 8 lbs. That can be hard to find one this light from that era, I believe. Some people will pay up for that. Again ... I'm not an "expert" on vintage Fenders.
You said this was in a pawn shop? Everything is negotiable.

 

[Flaked Beans]

One thing that makes this one desirable IMO (although still maybe overpriced) is that the OP said it's just a little over 8 lbs. That can be hard to find one this light from that era, I believe. Some people will pay up for that. Again ... I'm not an "expert" on vintage Fenders.
You said this was in a pawn shop? Everything is negotiable.

Wromg. Most early '70s basses had extremely light alder bodies, my '70 and '71 jazz were 7.5 lbs, '72 jazz 8 lbs and my '70 p was 7.5 lbs as well.

 

[Gaolee]

Best thing about riding a motorcycle is that you have to be totally in the moment, and your cell phone doesn't exist (kind of like a good music gig). The downside is that everyone in a car is trying to kill you...

Absolutely! I commute on a Daytona 675 when it's dry and a Suzuki DR400 when it's sloppy. They are radically different, but both are a blast. And, you can't let your mind wander. It's a concentration rush. Not like being on the track or racing, but then not much is.

As far as old bass guitars, especially old Fenders, they are just fine, I suppose. I have a Road Worn P that's as close to a vintage Fender as I'll ever get. I have played a few here and there for a few minutes, and they aren't any better in my hands. Maybe after living with one for a while, but they don't leap at my walled and demand to be taken home. They have a mystique that's lost on me. And furthermore, I don't think anybody in most audiences actually know or care what you are playing. The average person in an audience will look at the bass and either think it's another guitar, or not really know for sure. They will think a Rickenbacker looks like a Fender, if they look much at all. A Thunderbird might get a second look, just because it's a little different, but then it might not, either.

 

[A-Step-Towards]

It took me 6 months to sell this 1972 in extremely clean shape for $1699 Shipped, im not sure what I even netted, likely less then $1600. Now it was a fretless....but a factory one. I should of just installed frets and sold it lol

SOLD - 1972 Fender Precision Bass-FACTORY Fretless-8.5 lbs-Original Case-CLEAN

 

[timber22]

Wromg. Most early '70s basses had extremely light alder bodies, my '70 and '71 jazz were 7.5 lbs, '72 jazz 8 lbs and my '70 p was 7.5 lbs as well.

OK. I stand corrected. Maybe it was later in the 70's they tended to be heavier Ash. As I said ... I don't claim to be an expert.