19mm EBMM 5 string: fact / fiction?

[bucephylus]

We were discussing both the specs and the builders.

I recognize that it adds to the frustration when a builder is less than gracious in declining a build specification redesign. But, the result is essentially the same.

I mean, is it ok that Roger is polite in declining to redesign, but unacceptable when Sterling Ball is less appropriate when doing the exact same thing? The result is the same. What is accomplished by getting worked up about it?

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I recognize that it adds to the frustration when a builder is less than gracious in declining a build specification redesign. But, the result is essentially the same.

I mean, is it ok that Roger is polite in declining to redesign, but unacceptable when Sterling Ball is less appropriate when doing the exact same thing? The result is the same. What is accomplished by getting worked up about it?

Being shot in the head and dying of old age result in the same thing. Why get worked up?

 

[Fun Size Nick]

I mean, is it ok that Roger is polite in declining to redesign, but unacceptable when Sterling Ball is less appropriate when doing the exact same thing? The result is the same.

A social scientist would perhaps disagree.

 

[Joebone]

True, Roger is a gracious cat, and VERY customer oriented. But, he is equally stubborn about his production specs at the same time.

What are we discussing here, the specs or the builders? I thought it was the specs. There are other builders who can be pretty gritty, even if their basses are fabulous (Smith, cough, cough); but, doesn’t do us any good to discuss their customer orientation short comings, does it? Again, if you are going to go that route, why pick out any one of them in particular? Some builders are simply less customer friendly than others.

I guess.

So as the OP of the 2011 thread, I've idly sampled through it - and through this thread - over the last few days. And what started out as a wish list for a specification morphed into a sequence of ad hominem attacks and "quien es mas macho" posturing. I've not gone back to the parallel thread on the EBBM website, but recall a whole lot of ugly from that quadrant. Perhaps the whole thing can be summarized as follows:

* Folks who respect EBBM product explore an alternative specification.

* Other folks - the EBBM fanbois - take this as a personal insult, and lash out

* EBBM seems to also take this personally, and creates a window of pseudo-opportunity, designed to demonstrate superior knowledge of the marketplace. Well, duh?

* Tempers flare, insults ensue from both sides, the whole thing crashes and burns.

And so it goes. And while I've moved on, this new thread has pulled me back into the time and place that spurred my interest in the alternate-spec SR5HH. It's a sextet, doing Brazilian and Afro-Jazz at a good-sized art gallery. The band is choosing good material, and the SR5HH in my hands is BRINGING IT... At one point the tenor sax player turns to me to say "the pitch clarity on that bass is superb." And it was. And I loved it...but my own technical limitations (I am left-handed, and my right-hand technique lags, especially back then) made it difficult to play - along with some splitchy action on the G-string. So I asked about the wider spacing. And the nature and tenor of the response got flat-out weird. Personalities subsumed the substantive topic. And so it goes.

 

[bucephylus]

Being shot in the head and dying of old age result in the same thing. Why get worked up?

Great, go ahead and shoot me in the head. Hope it makes you feel better.

 

[bucephylus]

I guess.

So as the OP of the 2011 thread, I've idly sampled through it - and through this thread - over the last few days. And what started out as a wish list for a specification morphed into a sequence of ad hominem attacks and "quien es mas macho" posturing. I've not gone back to the parallel thread on the EBBM website, but recall a whole lot of ugly from that quadrant. Perhaps the whole thing can be summarized as follows:

* Folks who respect EBBM product explore an alternative specification.

* Other folks - the EBBM fanbois - take this as a personal insult, and lash out

* EBBM seems to also take this personally, and creates a window of pseudo-opportunity, designed to demonstrate superior knowledge of the marketplace. Well, duh?

* Tempers flare, insults ensue from both sides, the whole thing crashes and burns.

And so it goes. And while I've moved on, this new thread has pulled me back into the time and place that spurred my interest in the alternate-spec SR5HH. It's a sextet, doing Brazilian and Afro-Jazz at a good-sized art gallery. The band is choosing good material, and the SR5HH in my hands is BRINGING IT... At one point the tenor sax player turns to me to say "the pitch clarity on that bass is superb." And it was. And I loved it...but my own technical limitations (I am left-handed, and my right-hand technique lags, especially back then) made it difficult to play - along with some splitchy action on the G-string. So I asked about the wider spacing. And the nature and tenor of the response got flat-out weird. Personalities subsumed the substantive topic. And so it goes.

As I have already posted, I sympathize with the frustration. In no way did I diminish that. My only points were that grinding on the frustration doesn’t solve anything, that there is equivalent frustration going the other direction spec-wise, but that there are business bases behind what otherwise becomes an emotionally charged decision.

That’s all. I’m NOT the bad guy. Yet, somehow, the target is on MY back now? That’s just completely inappropriate.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I guess.

So as the OP of the 2011 thread, I've idly sampled through it - and through this thread - over the last few days. And what started out as a wish list for a specification morphed into a sequence of ad hominem attacks and "quien es mas macho" posturing. I've not gone back to the parallel thread on the EBBM website, but recall a whole lot of ugly from that quadrant. Perhaps the whole thing can be summarized as follows:

* Folks who respect EBBM product explore an alternative specification.

* Other folks - the EBBM fanbois - take this as a personal insult, and lash out

* EBBM seems to also take this personally, and creates a window of pseudo-opportunity, designed to demonstrate superior knowledge of the marketplace. Well, duh?

* Tempers flare, insults ensue from both sides, the whole thing crashes and burns.

And so it goes. And while I've moved on, this new thread has pulled me back into the time and place that spurred my interest in the alternate-spec SR5HH. It's a sextet, doing Brazilian and Afro-Jazz at a good-sized art gallery. The band is choosing good material, and the SR5HH in my hands is BRINGING IT... At one point the tenor sax player turns to me to say "the pitch clarity on that bass is superb." And it was. And I loved it...but my own technical limitations (I am left-handed, and my right-hand technique lags, especially back then) made it difficult to play - along with some splitchy action on the G-string. So I asked about the wider spacing. And the nature and tenor of the response got flat-out weird. Personalities subsumed the substantive topic. And so it goes.

It’s good to know why you originally brought up the topic.

 

[dickfitts]

I guess.

So as the OP of the 2011 thread, I've idly sampled through it - and through this thread - over the last few days. And what started out as a wish list for a specification morphed into a sequence of ad hominem attacks and "quien es mas macho" posturing. I've not gone back to the parallel thread on the EBBM website, but recall a whole lot of ugly from that quadrant. Perhaps the whole thing can be summarized as follows:

* Folks who respect EBBM product explore an alternative specification.

* Other folks - the EBBM fanbois - take this as a personal insult, and lash out

* EBBM seems to also take this personally, and creates a window of pseudo-opportunity, designed to demonstrate superior knowledge of the marketplace. Well, duh?

* Tempers flare, insults ensue from both sides, the whole thing crashes and burns.

And so it goes. And while I've moved on, this new thread has pulled me back into the time and place that spurred my interest in the alternate-spec SR5HH. It's a sextet, doing Brazilian and Afro-Jazz at a good-sized art gallery. The band is choosing good material, and the SR5HH in my hands is BRINGING IT... At one point the tenor sax player turns to me to say "the pitch clarity on that bass is superb." And it was. And I loved it...but my own technical limitations (I am left-handed, and my right-hand technique lags, especially back then) made it difficult to play - along with some splitchy action on the G-string. So I asked about the wider spacing. And the nature and tenor of the response got flat-out weird. Personalities subsumed the substantive topic. And so it goes.

THIS. My goodness, friend. This is like the Slaughterhouse 5 of burning thread posts. Your depth of perception and warmth of humanity is humbling indeed.

Please let me know when you decide to run for President Of Earth. You just earned yourself a vote...

 

[Fuzzbass]

Cool thread. Only halfway through, but I'll chime in anyway.

The takeaway is, that if the head of the company is abrasive, and impolite, there are more than a few people that will vote with thier money.
The customer may not always be right, but that does not automatically justify a condicending superior attitude.
A simple NO we don't do that can suffice.

Exactly. Easy answer: "Hey everyone, we acknowledge that there's some demand for wide-spaced five strings, but our current fivers are selling extremely well. No company can please everyone, and a wide 5 is something that we won't offer at this time. Thanks for your interest in EB MM".

As one who doesn't really like anything wider than 17.5 (most of my basses are 17 or 16.5), I didn't realize there was such a demand for wide spacings. Not to derail the thread, but why y'all like it so wide? Does it have something to do with 4 string spacing (I haven't played a 4 in over 20 years)? My SR5 feels perfect.

Different strokes. I played four string for about 25 years before getting a fiver. My first fiver was a Fender Roscoe Beck with 19mm spacing -- felt great to me. I then got a Modulus Quantum fiver with 17mm -- great bass, but my right hand never felt comfortable. I wasn't even that thrilled with an 18mm Mike Lull fiver that I owned for awhile.

Could I have adjusted to those narrow basses eventually? Possibly... but when I know that 19mm is perfect for me, then why I should I bother with anything else? Likewise, if you're comfortable on 16.5-17mm, then there's no reason for you to consider alternatives.

 

[Rabidhamster]

Being shot in the head and dying of old age result in the same thing. Why get worked up?

People sometimes live through being shot in the head. How can anyone live through Sterling Balls refusal to do what they demanded?

 

[Fuzzbass]

Forgot to mention: even though the offer seemed insincere from the get-go, I actually put money down. I still have the confirmation e-mail I got on July 6, 2011.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

People sometimes live through being shot in the head. How can anyone live through Sterling Balls refusal to do what they demanded?

You use words like "demand", nobody is demanding anything.

 

[Rabidhamster]

You use words like "demand", nobody is demanding anything.

They asked and got upset they don’t receive. Whatever word you care to use, you understand what I said I replied because your analogy is quite amusing.

I don’t care either way and I missed the original exchange, but I can’t help but wonder if this was a misguided attempt to help people understand the real cost of retooling a production line that was interpreted as a rude offer set up for failure.
For example, if 100 people had instantly ordered, that would have been essentially market research showing there had to be a lot more demand out there afterall and the vast expense to retool might be worth it.

Let’s be real they can’t redesign a bass bridge, build it, and write new programs for the CNC for only 100 instruments and make it worth their time. Nobody would pay what they would have to charge to do that. But if 100 people are cash-in-hand on this site alone, we’ll maybe they would have financial incentive to make a regular production run because there must be more out there if so many people were willing to put their money where their mouth is.


I kind of hope they never make them, because I don’t want to have to wonder about the string spacing on used Stingrays.

 

[Fuzzbass]

They asked and got upset they don’t receive.

The fact is that most of us did NOT expect to receive, given the convoluted nature of the offer, along with "any color as long as it's black" (fortunately I happen to like black). We simply got annoyed by being toyed with, gaslit, etc.

I once requested a custom dual-P build from Sadowsky. When Roger declined, he was a gentleman about it. He felt no need to throw shade or get defensive because I asked for something he didn't already offer.

However Roger DID agree to build me a five string P-bass with Music Man style pickup -- 19mm spacing, of course. It's an amazing bass. Yes, the Sadowsky preamp sounds different than the Music Man preamp, but it's easy enough to get Stingray tones from that bass. Same's true for a Martin Keith bass I own with Music Man style pickup. Those two basses are my wide SR5s.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Cool thread. Only halfway through, but I'll chime in anyway.



Exactly. Easy answer: "Hey everyone, we acknowledge that there's some demand for wide-spaced five strings, but our current fivers are selling extremely well. No company can please everyone, and a wide 5 is something that we won't offer at this time. Thanks for your interest in EB MM".




Different strokes. I played four string for about 25 years before getting a fiver. My first fiver was a Fender Roscoe Beck with 19mm spacing -- felt great to me. I then got a Modulus Quantum fiver with 17mm -- great bass, but my right hand never felt comfortable. I wasn't even that thrilled with an 18mm Mike Lull fiver that I owned for awhile.

Could I have adjusted to those narrow basses eventually? Possibly... but when I know that 19mm is perfect for me, then why I should I bother with anything else? Likewise, if you're comfortable on 16.5-17mm, then there's no reason for you to consider alternatives.

If Sterling Ball had responded the way you propose, all anyone could say is OK.

 

[Rabidhamster]

The fact is that most of us did NOT expect to receive, given the convoluted nature of the offer, along with "any color as long as it's black" (fortunately I happen to like black). We simply got annoyed by being toyed with, gaslit, etc.

I once requested a custom dual-P build from Sadowsky. When Roger declined, he was a gentleman about it. He felt no need to throw shade or get defensive because I asked for something he didn't already offer.

However Roger DID agree to build me a five string P-bass with Music Man style pickup -- 19mm spacing, of course. It's an amazing bass. Yes, the Sadowsky preamp sounds different than the Music Man preamp, but it's easy enough to get Stingray tones from that bass. Same's true for a Martin Keith bass I own with Music Man style pickup. Those two basses are my wide SR5s.

You probably wouldn’t have been annoyed if 100 people had had cash-in-hand, it would’ve been a profitable business move and they could have just done it.
What do you prefer:
No.

No probably not unless this unlikely scenario is met.

Fact is I see preorders for stuff more expensive than something like this sell out in that time frame constantly on other forums. Keyboards that might not ever even work.

Maybe I should go read the whole thread. Were Guitar dealers specifically not allowed to buy any of these? I get they were presented here not as dealer sales, but direct to individuals, but dealers buy what they can resell, and they can use the internet. If a 19” spacing stingray 5 is really so in demand why did nobody in the world buy a measly 100 of them?
Was he just personally attacking people?

 

[Dr. Cheese]

The MTD Superbass 5 may be the very best 19mm spaced Stingray alternative and it is $1,149 at Musician’s Friend! I believe this is the ticket!

 

[MultiScaleMale]

You probably wouldn’t have been annoyed if 100 people had had cash-in-hand, it would’ve been a profitable business move and they could have just done it.
What do you prefer:
No.

No probably not unless this unlikely scenario is met.

Fact is I see preorders for stuff more expensive than something like this sell out in that time frame constantly on other forums. Keyboards that might not ever even work.

Maybe I should go read the whole thread. Were Guitar dealers specifically not allowed to buy any of these? I get they were presented here not as dealer sales, but direct to individuals, but dealers buy what they can resell, and they can use the internet. If a 19” spacing stingray 5 is really so in demand why did nobody in the world buy a measly 100 of them?
Was he just personally attacking people?

Dealers were prohibited from making orders as were international orders. 30 days really isn't enough time for a lot of people to come up with $2k and things like Affirm didn't exist then. Sure they could charge it, but the economy at the time was still recovering and people weren't all that willing to charge things. Even now if you go on Reverb and pull up Music Man instruments, select "New" and then check those serial numbers in the database, it's not unusual to see instruments that have been sitting on the wall for 18 months. So yeah, 30 days to sell 100 basses in one color was a bit of a tall order.

 

[Rabidhamster]

Dealers were prohibited from making orders as were international orders. 30 days really isn't enough time for a lot of people to come up with $2k and things like Affirm didn't exist then. Sure they could charge it, but the economy at the time was still recovering and people weren't all that willing to charge things. Even now if you go on Reverb and pull up Music Man instruments, select "New" and then check those serial numbers in the database, it's not unusual to see instruments that have been sitting on the wall for 18 months. So yeah, 30 days to sell 100 basses in one color was a bit of a tall order.

But non-EBMM dealers could have bought the limited run and marked it up like they always do. Japanese dealers have guys in the United States constantly that could have made the purchase, if they felt they could be sold for a profit.

Maybe EB should have doubled the price and halved the number to be presold?

The point is if they need to presell 100 instruments in 1 month on top of what their dealers and anyone international orders would eventually be to make it ever worthwhile, and that is impossible, then you have your answer. But at least you got the chance to see, right? I get the answer could be frustrating if it’s not the one you want.

$2000 is a lot of money for me. 30 days probably wouldn’t be enough time for me. I guess these forums have me desensitized, I see people posting a new multi-thousand dollar instrument once a month, the cars, stereos and watches people are into and figure 100 people with a buyer in the USA could come up with $2000 bucks within 30 days for something there is a real profitable demand for.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

But non-EBMM dealers could have bought the limited run and marked it up like they always do. Japanese dealers have guys in the United States constantly that could have made the purchase, if they felt they could be sold for a profit.

Maybe EB should have doubled the price and halved the number to be presold?

The point is if they need to presell 100 instruments in 1 month on top of what their dealers and anyone international orders would eventually be to make it ever worthwhile, and that is impossible, then you have your answer. But at least you got the chance to see, right? I get the answer could be frustrating if it’s not the one you want.

$2000 is a lot of money for me. 30 days probably wouldn’t be enough time for me. I guess these forums have me desensitized, I see people posting a new multi-thousand dollar instrument once a month, the cars, stereos and watches people are into and figure 100 people with a buyer in the USA could come up with $2000 bucks within 30 days for something there is a real profitable demand for.

Dealers weren't going to risk their dealership agreements and they knew what was going on with the "experiment" too.