1x15" vs. 4x10" ?

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I am a "doubler" (half the gigs I do are on upright and half are on Fender Bass. For one band I play both on the same gig). I have a Genzler Magellan 800 Watt amp head with a Genzler 1x12" Bass Array cab (with the tweeters in front). Thats my main rig. When I play Fender Bass (typically a P with flats) in a six piece country band in big halls I put the 1x12 on top of a 1x15 Electo-voice cab. It sounds pretty good but am contemplating replacing the 1x15 with the Genzler 4x10 bass array for a punchier tone. Any thoughts on the difference? The Genzler 4x10 is pricey, almost $2000!

You'd dig it. I'm sure the 410s a killer cabinet. Should end up being more than enough for you if you're using a 12 and a 115PA cab right now.

 

[Derek Kay]

A 4x10 is an expense and heavy weight that is not justified for the work you describe IMO. It will sound punchier to you and those onstage, but not necessarily to the audience.

A 4x10 works well as an onstage monitor with a decent FOH PA. Or a small boomey venue. That's their strength. Is that you?

Like you, I was a doubler, and used a 1x12 and 1x15.
I appreciated the flexibility, size/weight and efficiency. Two spkrs of differing size covers a bigger spectrum than many of the same.

I was utterly sick of carting around heavy "quad cabs", and not impressed by an array that seems to be fashionable.

Would you be in danger of DB feedback if you used 10"s?
I'd be inclined to upgrade the 15" to a lighter, higher spec driver.

 

[klokker]

I'm with those who say add another array 12 or 210 and you'll have more than you need. I'd like that 410 though, it's not that heavy or big, easy to schlep with a small folding hand cart etc.

I play small, medium, sometimes dance hall stuff and my 2x12 is enough without any FOH at all. I want that 410 though just because it would be bada$$.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

I am a "doubler" (half the gigs I do are on upright and half are on Fender Bass. For one band I play both on the same gig). I have a Genzler Magellan 800 Watt amp head with a Genzler 1x12" Bass Array cab (with the tweeters in front). Thats my main rig. When I play Fender Bass (typically a P with flats) in a six piece country band in big halls I put the 1x12 on top of a 1x15 Electo-voice cab. It sounds pretty good but am contemplating replacing the 1x15 with the Genzler 4x10 bass array for a punchier tone. Any thoughts on the difference? The Genzler 4x10 is pricey, almost $2000!

I double on upright & electric (but rarely on the same gig), and the best tone I can get out of my upright is through a single 15” cab, although it sounds great through a 2x15” cab or two 1x15” cabs stacked. I also have a single sealed 115 cab with no tweeter, loaded with an EV 400 watt cast aluminum frame speaker. It’s my go to cab for upright. If you like your 115 EV cab, I’d recommend a second 115 cab. I have nothing against 410 cabs (except weight of the old ones), but the slight sag in response of 15s vs 10s is a positive for upright, and they will still give you full bloom tone with your P+flats.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I am a "doubler" (half the gigs I do are on upright and half are on Fender Bass. For one band I play both on the same gig). I have a Genzler Magellan 800 Watt amp head with a Genzler 1x12" Bass Array cab (with the tweeters in front). Thats my main rig. When I play Fender Bass (typically a P with flats) in a six piece country band in big halls I put the 1x12 on top of a 1x15 Electo-voice cab. It sounds pretty good but am contemplating replacing the 1x15 with the Genzler 4x10 bass array for a punchier tone. Any thoughts on the difference? The Genzler 4x10 is pricey, almost $2000!

I have an 8 ohm Eden D-210-XST and power it with a Mesa WD-800. The amp puts out 400 watts with an 8 ohm load. Combined, it can put up up to 129 dBs. I use that rig in a 11 piece Motown review band with horns, use that rig in halls put seating up to 500-600 patrons with no problem.

I’m thinking in your case, if you buy a 410 cab, you probably will not be able to hear the 112 cab at all. Not to mention 410 cabs are a PITA to transport.

 

[WRM]

I’ll second the suggestions for adding another 12” bass array, or third the suggestions—

Adding two more BA 12 cabs would give you a flexible rig to cover just about any situation, and with a more predictable outcome (assuming you really like how the 12 sounds/feels). Since the Magellan is good w/ 2.6Ω, you could have a tall 312 stack that is plenty “punchy”. And I would guess it’s easier to hear on stage than a relatively squat 410.

Sure, that’s even more expensive than just getting the 410, but the 12s seem to show up more often in TB classifieds or used on Reverb.

Two straights with a slant on top would make an excellent stage monitor.

I agree.

 

[tb-player]

The Bass array 112 comes in a STR and SLT version. I suggest adding the version you don't have.

These are 8 ohms cabs and they are rated for 400W with a 98dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

A pair of them will result in an 4 ohm load, 800W of power handling, and about 101dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

At 400W the calculated SPL of a single 112 is [Log(400) x 10] + 98 = 124dB.

At 800W the calculated SPL of two 112s is [Log(800) x 10] + 101 = 130dB.​

The 410 is a 4 ohm cab with a 1200W power rating and 104dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

At 800W the calculated SPL of a single 410 is [Log(800) x 10] + 104 = 133dB.
​

If you run the 410 and 112 the amp needs to be able to handle a 2.67 ohm load. The MG800 is rated 800W at 2.67 ohms. The 410 will draw 2/3 of available power.

The 410 will get 800 x 2/3 = 533.3W

SPL at 533.3 = [Log(533.3) x 10] + 104 = 131.3dB​

The 112 will get 800 x 1/3 = 266.6W

SPL at 266.6 =[Log(266.6) x 10] + 98 = 122.3dB​

That is a 9dB difference in SPL

I believe the combined SPL of both cabs will be about 133.9dB. So you gain less than 1dB by adding the 112.

Math!

 

[GreyBeard]

4x10

 

[Marko 1]

My toxic masculine TalkBass persona requires that I recommend the 4x10...

then another to stack down the road.

 

[dbase]

Both together will have yer pants a flappin

 

[juancaminos]

If I was younger and more able to lift heavier things I would use a 410 over anything else.

 

[bwoodman]

I'd add another BA 112 - or Nu Classic 112 or 115....but I'm into small rigs / haven't owned a 410 since 1995 or so....

 

[Gervais Cote]

My heart and ears are telling me 410 but my lower back wants me to keep going with my two 112 GK Neo IV at 25 pounds each.
A 410 will give you more of everything, especially with the bass you’re using but tone can be different from a brand to another so better give them a try at first.

 

[GroovinOnFunk]

And if you do get the 4x10, do not put the 1x12 on top of it to play in that config.

Putting a 112 bass array on top of the 410 would be perfectly fine. Nothing will explode and it would sound great, especially if it's a slanted 112 bass array.

4x10 Genzler Bass Array would serve you just as well on upright as on electric, really. And the array part of it would pretty much eliminate your need for the EV monitor.
Yes, Jeff Genzler hooked me up with a rig, but no, that's not why I endorse Genzler amps. I do so because they're absolutely amazing! Amps and cabs alike! Innovative (which I love) and produce a sort of 3D bass tone that I've never experienced out of a live rig on a stage before.

 

[Standalone]

OP seemed new (to this topic) and not aware of the problems this config (1x12 + 4x10) would create: Half the power from the amp would go to the 1x12, and the other half would go to the 4x10 cab. In this config, you'd be over powering the 12 and underpowering the 10's (comparatively) resulting in "not the effect" he's seeking in terms of "punch" from the 10's. Additionally, the 1x12 will be 8 ohms and the 4x10 is more likely to be 4 ohms, thus presenting a value to his amp of < 4 ohms. Unless he has one of the few amps that are stable at 2 ohms, he'll risk causing damage to his amp. Guess you may have not understood this too.

I did, in fact, understand this -- the question was meant as a respectful (maybe slightly rhetorical) question to see their thinking before lecturing about it.

 

[Loring]

The Bass array 112 comes in a STR and SLT version. I suggest adding the version you don't have.

These are 8 ohms cabs and they are rated for 400W with a 98dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

A pair of them will result in an 4 ohm load, 800W of power handling, and about 101dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

At 400W the calculated SPL of a single 112 is [Log(400) x 10] + 98 = 124dB.

At 800W the calculated SPL of two 112s is [Log(800) x 10] + 101 = 130dB.​

The 410 is a 4 ohm cab with a 1200W power rating and 104dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

At 800W the calculated SPL of a single 410 is [Log(800) x 10] + 104 = 133dB.
​

If you run the 410 and 112 the amp needs to be able to handle a 2.67 ohm load. The MG800 is rated 800W at 2.67 ohms. The 410 will draw 2/3 of available power.

The 410 will get 800 x 2/3 = 533.3W

SPL at 533.3 = [Log(533.3) x 10] + 104 = 131.3dB​

The 112 will get 800 x 1/3 = 266.6W

SPL at 266.6 =[Log(266.6) x 10] + 98 = 122.3dB​

That is a 9dB difference in SPL

I believe the combined SPL of both cabs will be abput 133.9dB. So you gain less than 1dB by adding the 112.

Your math must be off - adding a cab while keeping overall wattage the same should not be less than one of the cabs at the same wattage…

 

[Maxi Funkl]

If cost is a concern NC-212 Would be a great solution. If not and you have the means to transport 4×10 I'd go for it. I tried the version 1 of that cab at NAMM when 1st released and was highly impressed. So, I'm sure the current v2 would be fantastic as well.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Your math must be off - adding a cab while keeping overall wattage the same should not be less than one of the cabs at the same wattage…

The 410 cab is a 4Ω cab and the 112 is an 8Ω cab. When used together the split would be as @Wasnex said, 1/3 of the power to the higher impedance 112 and 2/3 of the power to the lower impedance 410.

The 410, being a 4Ω cab would get about twice as much power as the 112, being an 8Ω cab, would get, when each is played separately. Combined, you need to have an amp that will handle a 2.67Ω load or you may damage your amp if its protection circuits don't turn it off in time.

With an 800 watt amp running an 8Ω cab, presuming the wattage is half the amount the amp can provide at 4Ω, that 112 would get 400 watts whereas the 410 run by itself could get all 800-watts because it is a 4Ω cab. When you add the two together, because the cabs are different ohms, the power split will be 2/3 to the 410 and 1/3 to the 112, which is less than the 112 would get on its own.

If the total wattage output of the amp goes up at 2.67 ohms load, then the 112 will get more power but the split is still going to be the same and still is probably NOT going to get up to 400-watts.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I am a "doubler" (half the gigs I do are on upright and half are on Fender Bass. For one band I play both on the same gig). I have a Genzler Magellan 800 Watt amp head with a Genzler 1x12" Bass Array cab (with the tweeters in front). Thats my main rig. When I play Fender Bass (typically a P with flats) in a six piece country band in big halls I put the 1x12 on top of a 1x15 Electo-voice cab. It sounds pretty good but am contemplating replacing the 1x15 with the Genzler 4x10 bass array for a punchier tone. Any thoughts on the difference? The Genzler 4x10 is pricey, almost $2000!

I bought a DNS-410 (handles 1400-watts) by DNA in 2015 to replace my 410+115 stack (acoustic + GK). That singe 410 was far louder than the stack was and far better sounding too. Thought I had bought my last cab. HOWEVER, small venues, like a brew pub were we hosted Open Mic Nights on 40+ Friday nights a year, freaked out when I tried to roll in my 410. They would typically make me plug in to some small 112 combo that never sounded very good even though it was loud enough for that small venue. So I bought an Eden EX-112 cab (handles 300watts) in 4Ω and an Eden TN226 class D amp (225-watts into 4Ω) for small venues. Then bought a second cab because that first 112 sounded so good and used two 112's at medium-sized venues.

Then in 2019 when I was added to the DNA Endorsing Artist group I bought the DNS-210 (handles 700-watts rms). It sounds just like my 410 but is smaller. It's also almost as loud, yet nobody looks cross-eyed at a bass player bringing in a 210. It's so loud it's even replaced my 410 for large indoor venues and 52-lbs is a lot less than 79-lbs to lug around. So now my "last cab" is only used at outdoor venues and music festivals.

As others have pointed out the 410 of pretty much any brand is always going to be louder than its 115. Back in the early 70's I toured for 3-years with a 215 powered, bass reflex, ported cab (Standel) that was also ungodly loud. But 115 cabs by themselves are not ungodly loud. They are fine for small and medium-sized venues, but may not be enough rig for the gig at large venues - probably not enough. You need at least two (2x115 or 1x215) for those large and outdoor venues. About the time you do that, your 2x115 cab set-up is heavier than a 1x410 set up without adding any real advantage to the sound and I'm not even sure anyone sells 2x15 cabs anymore.

You could get by with your Genzler 112 and a 115, but a better choice would be just get the 410 and use it by itself when you need it, while keeping your 112 for smaller venues. Or get a good 210 to pair with your 112. Since you already have a Genzler cab, I'd suggest you get another one if you want to run the cabs together. With any of the really good brands, the cab designers build them to work together. Running another brand of a second cab is going to be a crap shoot. Sometimes that works great, but often it doesn't work well at all.

Honestly, I doubt you will ever need a second cab if you get the Genzler 410. It handles 1000-watts and by itself and just doing the math starting at 103db your 800-watt amp should get it up to around 131db-132db. That presumes everything works perfectly and it might be a bit less than that, but that really is plenty loud just by itself. So get the Genzler 410; use it wherever the 112 isn't enough; and just call it good!

 

[Acoustic356]

Philip Conrad a local Atlanta area bassist did an interesting video on this topic: