2 112 Cabs vs 1 410 Cab

[jcon4040]

Wondering which combo is better for gigging and just over all convenience
I’m running a Aguilar TH500 into a Hartke HL410 with 1000 watts rms and just managed to snag 2 Hartke HL112 with 300 watts rms each for total of 600
Now my question is will the 2 112’s be louder since it’ll use the full 500 watts split into 2 8 ohm cabs or is the 410 still better even though I’m running it at 250 watts at 8 ohms

 

[SJan3]

Convenience wise, the 2 twelve cabs.
Volume wise depends upon a few factors like cabinet efficiency, speaker surface, ohm rating etc. But this should be close output wise. Question is, what do you prefer as either rig will do the job.

 

[Wasnex]

It appears you already have all three cabs. Do experiments to see which option meets your needs. Are both options loud enough? If yes, then which one do you think sounds best? Also which options is easier for you to transport? Your answers won't necessarily be the same as mine, so it shouldn't matter what I think.


The TH500 is 250W at 8 ohm and 500W at 4 ohms. The decibel difference between 250W and 500W is 3dB. My guess is the 410 is more efficient than both 112s. This means the 410 requires less power to reach the same volume. My guess is one option will be slightly louder than the other . Unfortunately Hartke doesn't publish sensitivity specs, so I can't work up the SPL for you.

 

[MarkA]

Well, since you've got the 410 and just snagged (Waiting on delivery, I guess?) the two 112s, you'll soon be able to tell us (most of us -- me, certainly) better than we could tell you. ;-)

That said, it depends on the sensitivity (decibels per watt at a given distance - usually measured at 1 meter) and, to some extent, the voicing of each cab (if one cab is hotter in the mids, say, it might be perceived as louder in a mix).

Rule of thumb (if I remember rightly) is that doubling power will get you an extra 3 dB, assuming the cab(s) will handle the power gracefully. Stacking two identical cabs will get you an extra 3 dB overall (relative to a single cab) plus some more in the lows due to coupling at longer wavelengths.

Hypothetical situation: You've got two 8 Ohm 112s with sensitivities of 95 dB/W/m, each and an 8 Ohm 410 with a sensitivity of 101 dB/W/m, to run with a solid state head that makes 1 Watt at 8 Ohms and 2 Watts at 4 Ohms (assume cabs will handle the power just fine ;-)).

• The 8 Ohm 410 will get 1 Watt of power -- with that much juice, volume at one meter will be 101 dB (maybe as some sort of weighted average, but that's beyond the scope of this example, here).
• The two 8 Ohm twelves, stacked, will have a combined overall sensitivity of 98 dB/W/m. The stack will get twice as much power as the 410 (2 Watts vs. 1), for another 3 dB, yielding 101 dB at one meter -- same as the 410.

Now, the two twelves will pick up another few dB in the lows from coupling, but the 10s in the 410 cab will likely do the same (they don't know if they're in one cab or two, just how close they are to each other) and we don't know how the cabs are voiced to start, so I'd call that a wash until I got to hear them or got better data another way.

As far as your real (not hypothetical) cabs go, if you can track down their sensitivity specs, you should be able to do the above calculation pretty easily -- of course, playing the two setups back to back (maybe at a rehearsal!) will give you information that might be less easily quantifiable but, I'd guess, ultimately, more meaningful.

As @SJan3 said, only you will be able to say which you like better and which works better for you in a given setting.

Hope you dig your new setup. Please report back with your impressions!

 

[jcon4040]

Appreciate your inputs, yea most definitely will come back after a test run at the next practice, for the most part I’m liking the the sound of one of each, my only gripe with this set up is that the 112 is smaller than the 410 and ideally I want the 112 under the 410, I’m liking the sound of 212 it sounds a little deeper but the 410 is a little louder, I’ll have a better idea once I’m in a mix, got the 212’s at a really unbeatable price so I went for

 

[MarkA]

Unfortunately Hartke doesn't publish sensitivity specs, so I can't work up the SPL for you.

D'oh! You'll just have to try 'em both and see, @jcon4040. (Also, now that I look at the photo you posted, it seems that you already have the 12s -- what are your impressions, then?)

One thing to keep in mind: Just because the stack of twelves is rated for 600 Watts doesn't mean that you can't damage the cabs if you crank a 500 Watt head into it (particularly if you play hard with boosted lows). You already know, I'm sure, to back off a bit if you hear the cabs complaining or feel things starting to compress, but, even if the stack keeps up with the 410 at a given volume-knob position, it's possible that the 410 would have a higher max-volume potential.

 

[MarkA]

Appreciate your inputs, yea most definitely will come back after a test run at the next practice, for the most part I’m liking the the sound of one of each, my only gripe with this set up is that the 112 is smaller than the 410 and ideally I want the 112 under the 410, I’m liking the sound of 212 it sounds a little deeper but the 410 is a little louder, I’ll have a better idea once I’m in a mix, got the 212’s at a really unbeatable price so I went for

I wouldn't do the 8 Ohm 112 with the 8 Ohm 410 unless it was at a controlled, (relatively) low volume or I had separate volume controls for each -- with each cab getting equal power, the 112 will hit its limits way before the 410 does. If you're pushing the rig, the 112 will hold the 410 back and be a lot easier to fry, accidentally.

That said, if you're careful and dig the sound... I wouldn't put the 12 on the bottom, though.

 

[MarkA]

^^^ To elaborate on the above, the 112 atop the 410, perhaps vertically or tilted up on a wedge, might be a nice setup for hearing yourself clearly on stage, especially if you have to stand close to the cabs.

One reason not to put the 112 under the 410 is that it'll be harder to hear the cab complain if you're pushing the rig (again the 12 will run out of steam way before the 410 does).

I was going to say that another is that the stack would be tippy -- that said, looking at your photo, those 12s seem closer in footprint to the 410 than I'd have thought. If the stack's stable and you like the sound enough and are careful... well, then, I guess you could do it.

If all cabs are 8 Ohms and the head produces 250 W @ 8 Ohms/500 W @ 4 Ohms (per your OP), it's not like either cab will be getting more juice than it would in the other setups -- long as you're mindful that the small cab will run out of headroom well before the bigger cab does (and be harder to hear if it is stressed, particularly on bottom), then, if no one's complaining and nothing's on fire, you're probably okay. ;-)

One last thing: it would complicate your setup but, if you did ever want separate volume control for one of the twelves atop the 410, it would be easy to slave a small amp to your TH500 via their effects loops (or run the TH500 in front of even a modest two-channel power amp). Whether such a setup would be worth the trouble for you, I can't say, but the possibility exists.

 

[SJan3]

Agree with @MarkA . The mix of a single 1x12 and the 4x10 cab will likely be punishing to the 12". And the 4x10" cab is probably higher efficiency and can handle more power. I'm not sure that you'll even hear the 1x12" that much.
I've had both 4x10" and two 1x12" rigs and they are both loud. A 4x10" is probably good for 98% of the gigs I'd ever play. The two 1x12"s maybe a bit less.
YMMV

 

[agedhorse]

The 112 will be fine, it will receive 250W and so will the 410. How it sounds is subjective however.

 

[jcon4040]

I hear you guys, maybe I was a little too ambitious getting the 2 12’s then, got it at a ridiculous discount so I went and got them, also liked the way the 2 12’s stacked and brought the head up so I didn’t have to kneel as much to adjust eq, my other reason for pulling the trigger was if I ever went to practice or a smaller gig I could take 1 12 as opposed to 2 12’s or the 110

 

[gtirard]

I’m liking the sound of 212 it sounds a little deeper but the 410 is a little louder

I would choose the 2x12 if they sound better even if the 410 is louder - as long as the 2x12 is loud enough.

 

[Wasnex]

AFAIK your version of the TH500 is only good down to 4 ohms, but I don't think a 112 and 410 are a good match.

The new TH500 V2 is good to 2.67 ohms, so you could run all three cab .

 

[jcon4040]

AFAIK your version of the TH500 is only good down to 4 ohms, but I don't think a 112 and 410 are a good match.

The new TH500 V2 is good to 2.67 ohms, so you could run all three cab .

I’ll have to upgrade to a TH500 V2 someday

 

[jcon4040]

Agree with @MarkA . The mix of a single 1x12 and the 4x10 cab will likely be punishing to the 12". And the 4x10" cab is probably higher efficiency and can handle more power. I'm not sure that you'll even hear the 1x12" that much.
I've had both 4x10" and two 1x12" rigs and they are both loud. A 4x10" is probably good for 98% of the gigs I'd ever play. The two 1x12"s maybe a bit less.
YMMV

Yea last thing I want to do is punish a speaker, thanks for the input!!

 

[jcon4040]

^^^ To elaborate on the above, the 112 atop the 410, perhaps vertically or tilted up on a wedge, might be a nice setup for hearing yourself clearly on stage, especially if you have to stand close to the cabs.

One reason not to put the 112 under the 410 is that it'll be harder to hear the cab complain if you're pushing the rig (again the 12 will run out of steam way before the 410 does).

I was going to say that another is that the stack would be tippy -- that said, looking at your photo, those 12s seem closer in footprint to the 410 than I'd have thought. If the stack's stable and you like the sound enough and are careful... well, then, I guess you could do it.

If all cabs are 8 Ohms and the head produces 250 W @ 8 Ohms/500 W @ 4 Ohms (per your OP), it's not like either cab will be getting more juice than it would in the other setups -- long as you're mindful that the small cab will run out of headroom well before the bigger cab does (and be harder to hear if it is stressed, particularly on bottom), then, if no one's complaining and nothing's on fire, you're probably okay. ;-)

One last thing: it would complicate your setup but, if you did ever want separate volume control for one of the twelves atop the 410, it would be easy to slave a small amp to your TH500 via their effects loops (or run the TH500 in front of even a modest two-channel power amp). Whether such a setup would be worth the trouble for you, I can't say, but the possibility exists.

To clarify I would’ve like to stack it with the 12 on the bottom only if the 12 was equal in size I stacked it on top and it looked fine I just always was accustomed to having the bigger speaker at the bottom so it making my ocd feel uneasy

 

[SJan3]

The 112 will be fine, it will receive 250W and so will the 410. How it sounds is subjective however.

I always defer to your expertise but if he pushes the amp I'd think the 12" would struggle while the 4x10" loafs along.
Just seems like an odd combo to me..

 

[SJan3]

To clarify I would’ve like to stack it with the 12 on the bottom only if the 12 was equal in size I stacked it on top and it looked fine I just always was accustomed to having the bigger speaker at the bottom so it making my ocd feel uneasy

I'm right there with your OCD but as @agedhorse said, the tone is subjective. If you dig it, who am I to argue. I think it's an odd combo and the worst choice if convenience in transporting is a priority.
Do you like the sound of the two 12s or 4x10 better? That's the question I'd be asking myself. If maybe you like them for different things. If you're able, maybe you want to keep both rigs but if I were being tasked, I'd go with the two 1x12"s.
Much more flexible setup.

 

[MarkA]

I hear you guys, maybe I was a little too ambitious getting the 2 12’s then, got it at a ridiculous discount so I went and got them, also liked the way the 2 12’s stacked and brought the head up so I didn’t have to kneel as much to adjust eq, my other reason for pulling the trigger was if I ever went to practice or a smaller gig I could take 1 12 as opposed to 2 12’s or the 110

410 or not, the 2 x 112 stack is a nice, modular option to have -- makes sense for all the reasons you say and, if you got a good deal on them, all the better. (FWIW, I've often run two 112s for these reasons, even with bigger cabs available.)

The 112 will be fine, it will receive 250W and so will the 410. How it sounds is subjective however.

Yeah, with this amp it should be pretty safe unless things get silly.

That said, I didn't know "what kind" of (how optimistic of a) 300 Watt rating the OP's 12s have and, though it's been a minute, I've played (and shared my rig -- and have seen other people's rigs damaged) in settings wherein things routinely got some degree of silly... the cautionary parts of my post are informed partly by that -- but if nothing's getting damaged and you like the results, no reason not to run a 410 + 112 (or whatever setup). If the OP was running a 1000 Watt amp, I'd feel less easy.

To clarify I would’ve like to stack it with the 12 on the bottom only if the 12 was equal in size I stacked it on top and it looked fine I just always was accustomed to having the bigger speaker at the bottom so it making my ocd feel uneasy

My OC tendencies were triggered more by the variance in power-handling between your 112 and 410 cabs but, as @agedhorse says, if you like the results and are running each within its safe limits, no reason not to. (I might be a little more careful in a setting where I was sharing my rig, but part of feeling safe there is having enough overall "rig headroom" -- cabs + amp -- to cover whatever you'd reasonably need to, plus a chunk, without having to push anything too hard.)

 

[jcon4040]

I wouldn't do the 8 Ohm 112 with the 8 Ohm 410 unless it was at a controlled, (relatively) low volume or I had separate volume controls for each -- with each cab getting equal power, the 112 will hit its limits way before the 410 does. If you're pushing the rig, the 112 will hold the 410 back and be a lot easier to fry, accidentally.

That said, if you're careful and dig the sound... I wouldn't put the 12 on the

410 or not, the 2 x 112 stack is a nice, modular option to have -- makes sense for all the reasons you say and, if you got a good deal on them, all the better. (FWIW, I've often run two 112s for these reasons, even with bigger cabs available.)


Yeah, with this amp it should be pretty safe unless things get silly.

That said, I didn't know "what kind" of (how optimistic of a) 300 Watt rating the OP's 12s have and, though it's been a minute, I've played (and shared my rig -- and have seen other people's rigs damaged) in settings wherein things routinely got some degree of silly... the cautionary parts of my post are informed partly by that -- but if nothing's getting damaged and you like the results, no reason not to run a 410 + 112 (or whatever setup). If the OP was running a 1000 Watt amp, I'd feel less easy.


My OC tendencies were triggered more by the variance in power-handling between your 112 and 410 cabs but, as @agedhorse says, if you like the results and are running each within its safe limits, no reason not to. (I might be a little more careful in a setting where I was sharing my rig, but part of feeling safe there is having enough overall "rig headroom" -- cabs + amp -- to cover whatever you'd reasonably need to, plus a chunk, without having to push anything too hard.)

True enough, I won’t be risking doing the 112 with the 410, gonna keep it 112 for smaller gigs and practices, then just lug the 410 to bigger gigs since it has a lot more head room