2 50 watt 12" combos?

[The Great Genius]

I have an Orange Crush Bass 50 combo amp, and I have been thinking about buying another in order to double up on the wattage and cone area.

My thinking is that one 50 watt amp may not be enough for gigs of reasonable volume (Jazz, Blues-rock), but 2 will (100 x 2-12).

I have a 200 watt Hartke amp that I can buy cabs for. But I am tired of it's overly clean and sterile sound.

I like the sound of my Orange, and don't want to invest a lot of money into something I may of may not need some day. What do you think?

Note: I did post this question in the combo club, but it is slow moving, and I am looking for a broader pool of response.

 

[Aloe]

maybe, consider an Orange head? like OB-1-500 and one OBC112 for small gigs, two for louder occasions?

using one combo chained from another via FX loop might work, it's a somewhat common way to chain amps, but check with block scheme in the owner's manual to be sure. but this setup will run out of juice pretty fast, so if you plan to play loud, don't spend time and money stacking two 50w combos.

 

[gtirard]

I have an Orange Crush Bass 50 combo amp, and I have been thinking about buying another in order to double up on the wattage and cone area.

My thinking is that one 50 watt amp may not be enough for gigs of reasonable volume (Jazz, Blues-rock), but 2 will (100 x 2-12).

I have a 200 watt Hartke amp that I can buy cabs for. But I am tired of it's overly clean and sterile sound.

I like the sound of my Orange, and don't want to invest a lot of money into something I may of may not need some day. What do you think?

Note: I did post this question in the combo club, but it is slow moving, and I am looking for a broader pool of response.

Agree with Aloe. Don't waste your time trying to chain 2 50W combos, it will not be loud enough. When you double the watts you don't double the volume, far from that actually.

 

[The Great Genius]

Agree with Aloe. Don't waste your time trying to chain 2 50W combos, it will not be loud enough. When you double the watts you don't double the volume, far from that actually.

You forgot about doubling the speaker area, which can. Oh, and by the way guys, I said reasonable gigs, not loud ones.

 

[gtirard]

You forgot about doubling the speaker area, which can. Oh, and by the way guys, I said reasonable gigs, not loud ones.

OK great, you seem to know, so I wonder why you ask. I suggest you try then, and report back.

 

[gtirard]

OK great, you seem to know, so I wonder why you ask. I suggest you try then, and report back.

I mean, no offense, but doubling the speaker area doesn't double the output volume either. I don't know the science precisely enough, but doubling the cab only adds +3db, and I think you need approx +10db to double the volume.
@Wasnex could give you a more precise explanation. This question is asked quite often, somebody should write a sticky thread about this topic to serve as an objective reference for this recurring topic.

 

[The Great Genius]

OK great, you seem to know, so I wonder why you ask. I suggest you try then, and report back.

It may be quite a while before I know anything at this point. My expertise and experience lies mainly in high end home audio.

When I hear people say that their Rumble 100 (1-12) performs adequately in the type of performances I speak of, should we be taking this with a huge grain of salt?

 

[Wasnex]

I mean, no offense, but doubling the speaker area doesn't double the output volume either. I don't know the science precisely enough, but doubling the cab only adds +3db, and I think you need approx +10db to double the volume.
@Wasnex could give you a more precise explanation. This question is asked quite often, somebody should write a sticky thread about this topic to serve as an objective reference for this recurring topic.

If the power is held constant, adding an identical cab gives you up to +3dB. Two cabs are more efficient than one (+3dB).

- Let's assume we have a pair of identical cabs with a 97dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating. With 1W going to one cab, you get 97dB.
- When we connect the second cab and power is held constant, each cab gets 1/2W because the power (1W) is split evenly.
- When power is cut in half, we get -3dB. So each cab is making 94dB.
- For the frequencies where near-optimal mutual coupling occurs, you get up to +6dB. Our individual cabs are putting out 94dB, and then mutual coupling bumps the SPL up to 94 + 6 = 100dB. So the net gain is 3dB.
​

If the voltage is held constant, adding an identical cab gives you up to +6dB. Two cabs are more efficient than one (+3dB). Also the power doubles (+3dB).

- When you connect the second cab, the impedance is cut in half. If the amp can hold the voltage constant, the current and power will double. So now the amp is making 2W
- The 2W is split evenly between the cabs so each cab gets 1W and makes 97dB
- For the frequencies where near-optimal mutual coupling occurs, you get up to +6dB. Our individual cabs are putting out 97dB, and then mutual coupling bumps the SPL up to 97 + 6 = 103dB. So the net gain is 6dB.
​

Mutual coupling becomes optimal as the distance between the drivers drops to about 1/4 wavelength. The idea is the drivers need to be relatively close together.

Wavelength is inversely proportional to frequency. In other words, as frequency decreases, wavelength increases. The ramification is the efficiency gain occurs at relatively low frequencies.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Question for the collective. Kind of related to the OP's post.

Does using two 50 watt amps, give you the same headroom as one 100 watt amp?
My gut says no, but would like an expert opinion.

 

[The Great Genius]

Question for the collective. Kind of related to the OP's post.

Does using two 50 watt amps, give you the same headroom as one 100 watt amp?
My gut says no, but would like an expert opinion.

Staying with one driver/cab or adding another?

 

[Wasnex]

Question for the collective. Kind of related to the OP's post.

Does using two 50 watt amps, give you the same headroom as one 100 watt amp?
My gut says no, but would like an expert opinion.

Keep in mind you need a pair of identical speakers, because you shouldn't connect two amps to one cab.

Theoretically if both are pushing the same speakers, have the same exact voicing, and make power exactly the same way, yes.

In actual practice I think it's unlikely two 50W amps will behave exactly like one 100W amp, so no.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Keep in mind you need a pair of identical speakers, because you shouldn't connect two amps to one cab.

Theoretically if both are pushing the same speakers, have the same exact voicing, and make power exactly the same way, yes.

In actual practice I think it's unlikely two 50W amps will behave exactly like one 100W amp, so no.

Thanks.
Yes I was thinking in terms of the OP's question were he was chaining two combos.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Staying with one driver/cab or adding another?

OP's scenario. Two 50 what combos linked.

 

[The Great Genius]

OP's scenario. Two 50 what combos linked.

Well, like we said, virtually double the acoustical output.

 

[Stevorebob]

…[E]nough for gigs of reasonable volume (Jazz, Blues-rock) …

Not with any drummer or guitarist I’ve ever played with.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Well, like we said, virtually double the acoustical output.

Yes. Thanks.
My question was about headroom.
Two 50 watt amps vs a 100 watt amp.

 

[agedhorse]

Two 50 watt combos driven by a common source would generally equal a 100w version of the amp driving two of the equivalent cabinets.

This assumes that the two combos deliver the same power into their combo speakers as the 100w amp delivers into the two equivalent speakers.

 

[The Great Genius]

Not with any drummer or guitarist I’ve ever played with.

A single Hartke 12" HyDrive cab with 200 watt amp would not fair much better against a loud, agressive guitar/drum duo either.

I refuse to perform with this type.

 

[Wasnex]

Yes. Thanks.
My question was about headroom.
Two 50 watt amps vs a 100 watt amp.

I believe you have made quite a few posts about gigging with your Ashdown LB30 and having plenty of volume.

I can imagine a gig where an LB30 would be plenty, but IMHO most of my cover band gigs were way too loud for this amp.

Not sure if you have seen it, but I reported an experiment where I (essentially) slaved two LB30s. I normally run one amp into a pair of Genz Benz 1288Ts. For the experiment, each LB30 got a dedicated 1288T. The two amps were noticeably louder than one, but I would still want a bit more power for a cover band gig.

I think my Showman Reverb, which is considered an 85W amp, is probably still a bit louder. Back in the day, I gigged a Fender Twin Reverb through a pair of JBL E120s (explanation the Showman is essentially the head version of the Twin). I was able to hear myself, but I don't think it carried a cover band very well. Pretty sure this is the least poweful rig I have used for cover band gigs.

For context the 1288T is an 8 ohm cab with a 97.5dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating. The combined sensitivity rating of the pair would be 100.5dB, which is 0.5dB higher than an Ampeg 810E.

Here is the post if you missed it and are interested: Low-Wattage Tubesters Official Club

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I believe you have made quite a few posts about gigging with your Ashdown LB30 and having plenty of volume.

I can imagine a gig where an LB30 would be plenty, but IMHO most of my cover band gigs were way too loud for this amp.

Not sure if you have seen it, but I reported an experiment where I (essentially) slaved two LB30s. I normally run one amp into a pair of Genz Benz 1288Ts. For the experiment, each LB30 got a dedicated 1288T. The two amps were noticeably louder than one, but I would still want a bit more power for a cover band gig.

I think my Showman Reverb, which is considered an 85W amp, is probably still a bit louder. Back in the day, I gigged a Fender Twin Reverb through a pair of JBL E120s (explanation the Showman is essentially the head version of the Twin). I was able to hear myself, but I don't think it carried a cover band very well. Pretty sure this is the least poweful rig I have used for cover band gigs.

For context the 1288T is an 8 ohm cab with a 97.5dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating. The combined sensitivity rating of the pair would be 100.5dB, which is 0.5dB higher than an Ampeg 810E.

Here is the post if you missed it and are interested: Low-Wattage Tubesters Official Club

Thanks. Read the post you linked. Sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth, unless you already have the stuff.
Regardless of my headroom question, it just seems simpler to go with a hundred watts and two cabs for extra SPL.