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2 50 watt 12" combos?
- Thread starter The Great Genius
- Start date
There is a case for two 50W combos separately, but it's specialised. 
Stereo, and separated by a few feet. Apart from that, it would be tedious compared to the 100W and two cabs.
Stereo may not imply obvious stereo effects. One trick I do with two Ashdown 150W 1x10's is obvious, the echoes in the Doctor Who bassline. More useful in general is a tight plate reverb simulation, it would not be set up to emulate a room or ambience, but to make the sound source seem like one larger and broader cab. It's a nice illusion because it makes the bass sound bigger, even at the same power, because of how we hear a broad or stereo source.
Stereo, and separated by a few feet. Apart from that, it would be tedious compared to the 100W and two cabs.Stereo may not imply obvious stereo effects. One trick I do with two Ashdown 150W 1x10's is obvious, the echoes in the Doctor Who bassline. More useful in general is a tight plate reverb simulation, it would not be set up to emulate a room or ambience, but to make the sound source seem like one larger and broader cab. It's a nice illusion because it makes the bass sound bigger, even at the same power, because of how we hear a broad or stereo source.
100w isn't 2x as loud as 50. You would need a signal splitter for running two of those amps. You could sell the Hartke and buy a 200w Orange.
You could instead buy speakers for the Hartke and run it with your Orange. Is there a line out on the Hartke? The Orange could get the dirt you want, and the Hartke would give lowdown power.
I think you might be ok running a second identical amp, piggybacked. 100 watts and 2x12 should provide some volume. Focus on pushing more mids than lows, and your headroom should be ok.
I’ve run two 200-watt combos together, daisy chained, stacked. A 410 and a 210. Each with their own volume and eq. In my case I used the tuner out from the first amp to the input on the second amp. Then I could eq each differently and with separate volumes. Otherwise, using an effects loop in/out from one amp to the other usually allows you to eq once, and then just slave the second amp off the first.
One time when I was 14, my band competed in an outdoor battle of the bands contest. Each band set up on the basketball courts. No one shared equipment. Every band had a PA, and were getting terrible feedback. My band, well, we were 5-10 years younger than the other bands, and had no money. We made calls and got 5 guitar practice amps in the 15-40 watt range. We faced 4 of them forward and one back at us, and plugged the mic in to one. Then daisy chained them all together. The result? Somehow we had the loudest, clearest PA of all the bands, with NO feedback issues! Absolute luck. We had never tried that and never did that again - but really surprised me what could be done just working with what you got.
My rig for that outdoor gig was a Ross 60 watt 1x12 bass amp. While that amp was barely audible in the band room, outdoor the sound barely reached my ears. Luckily (?) the keyboardist’s amp was super loud. Sigh.
I’ve run two 200-watt combos together, daisy chained, stacked. A 410 and a 210. Each with their own volume and eq. In my case I used the tuner out from the first amp to the input on the second amp. Then I could eq each differently and with separate volumes. Otherwise, using an effects loop in/out from one amp to the other usually allows you to eq once, and then just slave the second amp off the first.
One time when I was 14, my band competed in an outdoor battle of the bands contest. Each band set up on the basketball courts. No one shared equipment. Every band had a PA, and were getting terrible feedback. My band, well, we were 5-10 years younger than the other bands, and had no money. We made calls and got 5 guitar practice amps in the 15-40 watt range. We faced 4 of them forward and one back at us, and plugged the mic in to one. Then daisy chained them all together. The result? Somehow we had the loudest, clearest PA of all the bands, with NO feedback issues! Absolute luck. We had never tried that and never did that again - but really surprised me what could be done just working with what you got.
My rig for that outdoor gig was a Ross 60 watt 1x12 bass amp. While that amp was barely audible in the band room, outdoor the sound barely reached my ears. Luckily (?) the keyboardist’s amp was super loud. Sigh.
I can’t tell if your Hartke is a combo or a head and if it is a head I can’t tell if you already have a cabinet.
Assuming your Hartke is already equipped with speakers one way or the other and both amplifiers are equipped with effects loops, have you tried using the effects send from the Orange into the effects return of the Hartke?
if both amps have the effects loop it seems like it is worth trying. The orange has a tone you like (hopefully mostly from the preamp section) and the Hartke has a 200 watt power amp section you can use for no cost.
If the Hartke is loud enough, a preamp pedal might warm the tone to where you find it useable.
A new beheringer BDDI is available for $50 or less if you want to experiment, and is still useful as a DI gig backup if it ultimately doesn’t do what you need it to.
If neither daisey chaining the amps you have are adding preamp pedals gets you results you are happy with, great, but I wouldn’t spend money on cabinets or additional 50 watt combos in your scenario. Instead I would identify a rig with enough power that you like the tone of (maybe a larger orange combo?) and then figure out a how to best liquidate one or both of your existing two amps that don’t quite meet your need to fund the purchase of one that does.
A class D amplifier with 350-500 watts and a 2x10 cabinet seems to meet a lot of people’s requirements for volume with a drummer, either as separate heads and cabinets or packaged into combos. You can always turn down and most modern versions of this rig formula weigh under 50 lbs for manageable one person carry.
Assuming your Hartke is already equipped with speakers one way or the other and both amplifiers are equipped with effects loops, have you tried using the effects send from the Orange into the effects return of the Hartke?
if both amps have the effects loop it seems like it is worth trying. The orange has a tone you like (hopefully mostly from the preamp section) and the Hartke has a 200 watt power amp section you can use for no cost.
If the Hartke is loud enough, a preamp pedal might warm the tone to where you find it useable.
A new beheringer BDDI is available for $50 or less if you want to experiment, and is still useful as a DI gig backup if it ultimately doesn’t do what you need it to.
If neither daisey chaining the amps you have are adding preamp pedals gets you results you are happy with, great, but I wouldn’t spend money on cabinets or additional 50 watt combos in your scenario. Instead I would identify a rig with enough power that you like the tone of (maybe a larger orange combo?) and then figure out a how to best liquidate one or both of your existing two amps that don’t quite meet your need to fund the purchase of one that does.
A class D amplifier with 350-500 watts and a 2x10 cabinet seems to meet a lot of people’s requirements for volume with a drummer, either as separate heads and cabinets or packaged into combos. You can always turn down and most modern versions of this rig formula weigh under 50 lbs for manageable one person carry.
You are forgetting that this is all subjective. It's all opinions. And their situation may be different from yours. So, yes, I take those kinds of comments "with a huge grain of salt"? (By the way, is there any such thing as a HUGE grain of salt?)
When someone says their drummer and guitar player play at "reasonable volumes", what does that mean? For some, "reasonable volume" could still mean "very loud" to me.
It seems as though you are looking for us to simply say "Go for it! It'll be awesome!"
That's not what we do here. If we're actually helping, we'll ask for details and pick things apart. Then we'll filter all of that through our EXPERIENCE.
Sorry you didn't get the perfect answer you were looking for. You already seem to know what you want to do. Just do it and report back.
I recall someone using (2) smaller Hartke kick-backs in a similar scenario with positive outcomes.
Riis
Riis
Exactly my reaction. I was wondering what's the point of asking a question if you think you know the answer and you won't accept any other advice. Maybe this guy expects us to say: what a genius idea, how smart you are, you're amazing.
well, it's your choice to lug 30 kg instead of 20kg for quiet gigs, but soon you'll find out that:
1. your combos have no DI or line out (and you'll literally face it in the first club, you've got to play)
2. you can't stack a third combo if you wish some more heft than 100W (and it might happen much more sooner, than you expect)
one 12" neo cab and a 500W head is much more practical (lighter, smaller, more functional) solution than two chained combos for small gigs, but if you absolutely want to buy a second combo and learn it the hard and expensive way -- we cannot stop you.
mEH. Get a 500w Rumble and a pedal for some dirt.
it's the idea that you like that sound so much: so yes, you'll get more of the good stuff with two orange 50w combos.
the technical comments are clarifying. the arguments for "practicality" have merit, IMO. but the only way to increase the volume/'power'/presence of one 50w orange combo amp and still retain that tone = two 50w orange amps.
also: there are folks who have two-of-the-same combo amps that are used singularly, or in pairs, depending on the gig --- i read it myself in the fender rumble thread(s).
that said, i'm in the "try it and report back" group. good luck!
FWIW: i have several bi-amp configurations available to me that are essentially the same idea as the OP's 'quest': they work great!
Never works. My idea dropped like a silent stone.
Again! I tried it in another thread, it vanished without trace that time too... Does no-one think that stereo bass might be a cool idea? I mean, who hasn't wanted their bass to sound as big as a grand piano at times? That could more than make up for raw watts, so long as it's at least audible.
I do know the science, and doubling combos like this gets you 6 dB, which is 4 times the acoustical output power of a single combo, assuming you place them next to one another (which means they add coherently). You get half of that (3 dB_ from doubling the power, and half (another 3 dB) from the acoustical coupling of 2 drivers next to each other.
you're going to hate me if I answer that stereo panning won't be of any interest for bass?Never works. My idea dropped like a silent stone.
I'm not... That's a reasonable thought, because it depends on how much useful HF there is in the bass sound. In most conventional uses, there isn't much.
If there's a lot, then it works like any other HF sources. The echoes in the Doctor Who bassline depend on this. The idea was in Delia Derbyshire's original work, it's not a new idea..
EDIT: In the end of Tangerine Dream's track Mojave Plan (from White Eagle), there's a spectacular demonstration of the power of a stereo bass with echo between channels. Given a strong HF character in any bass, the scope for subtle creation of large sounds is unending. (It's also why a good live sound's ambience is usually more exciting than a studio mix).
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Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
Never works. My idea dropped like a silent stone.
I've been using stereo bass for a few decades on and off. If the motivation is just to please yourself or possiby everyone on stage it can be incredibly cool IMO and IME. Past that it takes huge commitment and a lot of thinking about what you're really trying to accomplish. I was mostly using it in a duo with drums and myself, doubling on guitar as well, and doing processed vocals through the same rig. Gigs were sit down/shut up in ~100 seaters for the most part, and I had hundreds of chances to refine it in a local club I did sound in. I have a much better handle on how to get what I want by now, but I'm no longer gigging and if I did an unamplified upright would likely be my drug of choice.
What the OP is doing here is arraying a couple speakers. People seem to think that 50 watts per speaker isn’t enough, even if arrayed.
There is a stunning counter example of arraying available to ponder for those who doubt the power of an array. We’ll start with a 10 inch driver that has 90 dB per watt sensitivity - not efficient at all by bass guitar standards - probably well below what the OP’s combo has. Now, let’s drive that with 34 watts of power - again, less power than the OP has per speaker. Can arraying those speakers get us a decent amount of output? Hardly seems doable. But that is precisely what an SVT/810 cabinet is - a bunch of inefficient 10’s, with 34 watts per driver. (The original 810’s were intended to be used in pairs, so the original idea was 17 watts per driver). Arraying multiple speakers can get you more than you’d think.
There is a stunning counter example of arraying available to ponder for those who doubt the power of an array. We’ll start with a 10 inch driver that has 90 dB per watt sensitivity - not efficient at all by bass guitar standards - probably well below what the OP’s combo has. Now, let’s drive that with 34 watts of power - again, less power than the OP has per speaker. Can arraying those speakers get us a decent amount of output? Hardly seems doable. But that is precisely what an SVT/810 cabinet is - a bunch of inefficient 10’s, with 34 watts per driver. (The original 810’s were intended to be used in pairs, so the original idea was 17 watts per driver). Arraying multiple speakers can get you more than you’d think.
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So, a few factors.
2 Crush Bass 50's are two 31 lb amplifiers. Is this heavy? Eh, not prohibitively so, but in a world where we have 29lb 800 watt combo amps it might be more lugging than you need.
Unfortunately there is no 200 watt or 500 watt Crush option, but there are 3-4 different reasonably affordable class D Orange amps you could pair with a light cab. You would lose the onboard tuner.
Two 50 watt combos may give you what you need, but it seems like a big/logistically annoying option given all of the other ways you can get more power.
Get something like one of the VT pedals and put it in front of the Hartke.
