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.254 gauge?!

#21
Also, Contrabass Mania Frequencies

A lot of this stuff got discussed for about the hundredth time in this thread: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/bass-frequency-waterfall-plots-what-they-mean-rigs-510749/ ...probably the advantage of that long thread is it actually ties it all together more than a lot of separate threads that Skip/Knuckle and I have participated in in the last 10 years or so.

I was a beta tester on the Circle K strings, as well as having Skip's personal Quake Bass around here (39.5" scale length so much better for punchy low tuning and actually quite easy to play!) for maybe a year some time before Circle K started happening.

Deep tunings are a big part of my cab designs.
 
#22
Metal Matt said:
.182, and I wasn't talking about my rig being able to handle G#00, I was talking about E an octave from standard, which I have tuned my .182 down to before.

I have no idea what C#0, let alone G#00 would sound like through my rig, or if my speakers could even handle it, but they handle F#0 just fine for me.
Click to expand...

Woops, guess I missed that first time through reading it. I've detuned heavy B strings to F# and had no issue either, but G#00 is a bit insane. Who would even want to use that?

As a side note, while listening to Mors, my computer speakers began cracking a lot. Woops :p
 
#23
Very cool. Matt, what kind of bridge set-up do you use for those kind of strings? I just got a Kahler (non-trem) bridge on ebay specifically for the many points of adjustability and the top-loading set-up for large diameter strings. I don't currently play anything below A0, but i do hear/feel extreme sub-bass. The bass frequency I'm most impressed with after real pipe-organ C0 is tectonic plate grind. Yes you can "hear" it. it tickles the marrow. Ears pick up the upper harmonics, the brain synthesizes the fundamental, the emotional center goes "ahhhhhhh". Below 15hz, the brain cannot string the impulses together into "sound", but the body hears and responds.
 
#25
greenboy said:
Also, Contrabass Mania Frequencies

A lot of this stuff got discussed for about the hundredth time in this thread: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/bass-frequency-waterfall-plots-what-they-mean-rigs-510749/ ...probably the advantage of that long thread is it actually ties it all together more than a lot of separate threads that Skip/Knuckle and I have participated in in the last 10 years or so.

I was a beta tester on the Circle K strings, as well as having Skip's personal Quake Bass around here (39.5" scale length so much better for punchy low tuning and actually quite easy to play!) for maybe a year some time before Circle K started happening.

Deep tunings are a big part of my cab designs.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the E string on a 4 string bass was an E2.
 
#26
greenboy said:
Also, Contrabass Mania Frequencies

A lot of this stuff got discussed for about the hundredth time in this thread: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/bass-frequency-waterfall-plots-what-they-mean-rigs-510749/ ...probably the advantage of that long thread is it actually ties it all together more than a lot of separate threads that Skip/Knuckle and I have participated in in the last 10 years or so.

I was a beta tester on the Circle K strings, as well as having Skip's personal Quake Bass around here (39.5" scale length so much better for punchy low tuning and actually quite easy to play!) for maybe a year some time before Circle K started happening.

Deep tunings are a big part of my cab designs.
Click to expand...

I've skimmed through that thread a few times before. Interesting stuff for sure. Wondering if you could help me understand something though...

Is it at all possible in my setup, 2 2x15's and three 200 watt solid state amps from the 70's, and a 4x12 and 1x18 that are maybe a little over 10 years old, that there is any fundamental at all actually being produced (even if it's barely audible), and is it possible that the volume I play at would bring it up to a truly audible level? Whenever I hit low F# with my full set up, I swear I can hear the fundamental although at a lower level than the fundamental of B0. And I know I can feel it or at least it moves air and moves through everything much more than higher notes. I've always assumed this was due to our hearing becoming less and less sensitive at these frequencies, and that there is at least some fundamental actually being produced by my rig hence the whole "feeling it more than hearing it" thing.

SMILEYSIXX said:
Woops, guess I missed that first time through reading it. I've detuned heavy B strings to F# and had no issue either, but G#00 is a bit insane. Who would even want to use that?

As a side note, while listening to Mors, my computer speakers began cracking a lot. Woops :p
Click to expand...

I'd probably use it, but I wouldn't want to risk my current equipment with it. And, as far as your crackling speakers... Good. ha

trkelley said:
Very cool. Matt, what kind of bridge set-up do you use for those kind of strings?
Click to expand...

Just a stock MIM Fender P-bass. May change it to something a little beefier but I'm happy with the stock bridge.
 
#29
Metal Matt said:
Is it at all possible in my setup, 2 2x15's and three 200 watt solid state amps from the 70's, and a 4x12 and 1x18 that are maybe a little over 10 years old, that there is any fundamental at all actually being produced (even if it's barely audible), and is it possible that the volume I play at would bring it up to a truly audible level? Whenever I hit low F# with my full set up, I swear I can hear the fundamental although at a lower level than the fundamental of B0. And I know I can feel it or at least it moves air and moves through everything much more than higher notes. I've always assumed this was due to our hearing becoming less and less sensitive at these frequencies, and that there is at least some fundamental actually being produced by my rig hence the whole "feeling it more than hearing it" thing.
Click to expand...

Not only does our hearing become less sensitive lower down (in that thread you can see the Equal Loudness Contour that illustrates it), but so do speakers, they don't acoustically couple efficiently either. You are hearing the first few overtones above the fundamental, whichever ones are closest to the cabinets' resonant humps.

Takes a lot more wattage and a lot more cabinet to touch those low low frequencies. But if you are getting full satisfaction out of playing the tunings you are playing, what does it matter if it's not the fundamental?

Anyway, people really can't hear fundamentals too well in terms of pitch discernment even if you had speakers that are up to making them without harmonic distortion, until you get a little higher up. The ear really isn't built for separated fundamentals that low. But as tr said, when the harmonics are there the brain understands.
 
#30
ixlramp said:
The .254, .244 and .232 are for 3 different tensions of C#0, the string below F# that is below B. See the Circle K tension chart: Link Removed

Jauqo's pioneering C#0 string was an SIT .195, which had much less tension.



030.87 0 B ................ B
029.14 0 A# Bb
027.50 0 A
025.96 0 G# Ab
024.50 0 G
023.12 0 F# Gb ........ F#
021.83 0 F
020.60 0 E
019.45 0 D# Eb
018.35 0 D
017.32 0 C# Db ........ C#
016.35 0 C

15.43 00 B
14.57 00 A# Bb
13.75 00 A
12.98 00 G# Ab ........ G#

G#00 is 13 hertz. You can experience it with headphones, there's a wav. file at the Octave 4 Plus site, what you hear is the higher harmonics, not the fundamental frequency. O4P make strings for G#00 in gauges .262, .265 and .270.

How low can we hear?: [This invalid link has been removed]

woofercomparison.jpg


This infra-sub rotary woofer has 1Hz to 30Hz flat response:

Eminent%20TRW-17d.jpg


Eminent Technology: home
Click to expand...

From the Rotary Woofer website...

Pricing:

TRW-17 transducer $12,900.00

Motor Controller $450.00

BT-42 Amplifier and crossover $1050.00

Design and installation, typical $8,000-$12,000*

Total $21,950-$25,950

Goooooodnight everybody....I wonder if there is anyone using it for live performance purposes yet. It would be quite interesting, but it looks like you practically need a room to house the woofer in for it to function correctly.
 
#31
greenboy said:
The ear really isn't built for separated fundamentals that low. But as tr said, when the harmonics are there the brain understands.
Click to expand...

Anyway, Matt, the reason I wanted to help Skip is we had similar ideas about low pitched strings that would be better at creating more harmonic content so that they would blend in better with the higher pitched strings in a set. We felt if the harmonics closer to the fundamental were strong that the strings would sound powerful but also not be tough to hear the articulation and pitch so much, even through standard conventional pickups and rigs.
 
#33
greenboy said:
Takes a lot more wattage and a lot more cabinet to touch those low low frequencies. But if you are getting full satisfaction out of playing the tunings you are playing, what does it matter if it's not the fundamental?
Click to expand...

Agreed 100%. Still good to know the science behind this stuff. I feel the same about the issue of mixing speaker sizes, and side by side setups. I run an abomination of a rig as far as that goes, but it gives me the sound and air movement I want. Knowing the science helped me at least understand why stacking my cabs one way sounded like crap and another way sounded better.

greenboy said:
Anyway, Matt, the reason I wanted to help Skip is we had similar ideas about low pitched strings that would be better at creating more harmonic content so that they would blend in better with the higher pitched strings in a set. We felt if the harmonics closer to the fundamental were strong that the strings would sound powerful but also not be tough to hear the articulation and pitch so much, even through standard conventional pickups and rigs.
Click to expand...

Definitely succeeded there. After reading a ton of threads on here saying you need active basses and special speakers and all this stuff for sub tunings, I was blown away at how great these sound on a stock P-bass through my pile of mismatched cabs and old amps. I had messed around before with an active ibanez I used to own, had a GHS .145 for low G#, and it sounded okay, but the string was insanely stiff and I couldn't play it for any long period of time. That and I don't really care for the sound of active basses.
 
#34
How do you get around all the rattles in the structure of your HOUSE when firing this stuff up? Seriously. I can only fire up my big subs cleanly on my outside stage. I live in the woods, my nearest neighbor is a mile away, he still hears it. :)
Re: the 15hz myth - OK, well, i didn't check it myself, got it from an audiophile forum and we know about those kids..... i can hear earthquakes and lightbulbs, i never know what other people's hearing is really like. :) But I've been into bass since i was a tiny kid. Jets, locomotives, waterfalls, etc....
 
#36
Invisible_Kid said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the E string on a 4 string bass was an E2.
Click to expand...

The E is notated as E2, because bass is traditionally notated an octave up to reduce ledger lines. The actual frequency is E1.

In this table, the note columns are the open strings of extended range bass (left) and extended range guitar (right).

Octave number follows the convention of 'Scientific pitch notation'.

Frequency (Hz) / octave / note / ERB / ERG

493.88 4 B
466.16 4 A# Bb
440.00 4 A ...................................... A
415.30 4 G# Ab ........ Ab
392.00 4 G
369.99 4 F# Gb
349.23 4 F
329.63 4 E ...................................... E
311.13 4 D# Eb ........ Eb
293.66 4 D
277.18 4 C# Db
261.63 4 C

246.94 3 B ...................................... B
233.08 3 A# Bb ........ Bb
220.00 3 A
207.65 3 G# Ab
196.00 3 G ...................................... G
185.00 3 F# Gb
174.61 3 F ................ F
164.81 3 E
155.56 3 D# Eb
146.83 3 D ...................................... D
138.59 3 C# Db
130.81 3 C ................ C

123.47 2 B
116.54 2 A# Bb
110.00 2 A ...................................... A
103.83 2 G# Ab
098.00 2 G ................ G
092.50 2 F# Gb
087.31 2 F
082.41 2 E ...................................... E
077.78 2 D# Eb
073.42 2 D ................ D
069.30 2 C# Db
065.41 2 C

061.74 1 B ...................................... B
058.27 1 A# Bb
055.00 1 A ................ A
051.91 1 G# Ab
049.00 1 G
046.25 1 F# Gb .............................. F#
043.65 1 F
041.20 1 E ................ E
038.89 1 D# Eb
036.71 1 D
034.65 1 C# Db .............................. C#
032.70 1 C

030.87 0 B ................ B
029.14 0 A# Bb
027.50 0 A
025.96 0 G# Ab .............................. G#
024.50 0 G
023.12 0 F# Gb ........ F#
021.83 0 F
020.60 0 E
019.45 0 D# Eb
018.35 0 D
017.32 0 C# Db ........ C#
016.35 0 C

15.43 00 B
14.57 00 A# Bb
13.75 00 A
12.98 00 G# Ab ........ G#
12.25 00 G
11.56 00 F# Gb
10.91 00 F
10.30 00 E
09.72 00 D# Eb
09.18 00 D
08.66 00 C# Db
08.18 00 C
 
#37
New here. :) Fun discussion.

Here is another musical application of extremely low pitches. This is a huge rank of pipes from a pipe organ in Sydney that was built in the 19th century. (!) Played here is a descending C major scale, which, when using ixlramp's table, begins on C1 (32.70). The scale continues for two octaves, all the way down to C00 (8.18). The speaking length of the lowest pipe is 64 feet. That's a lot of air being moved!

Here's a fun question: At which point during the two octave scale does your perception of the sound go from pitch to, well, individual vibrations? According to what Jauqo affectionately refers to as a "myth," that transfer should happen around the 9th note played, B00 (15.43). What do you think?
 
#40
Countertenor said:
Here's a fun question: At which point during the two octave scale does your perception of the sound go from pitch to, well, individual vibrations? According to what Jauqo affectionately refers to as a "myth," that transfer should happen around the 9th note played, B00 (15.43). What do you think?
Click to expand...

I think it happened a little sooner to my ears, but I certainly agree.

The human ear can reasonably detect about 15 beats per second, or what would be referred to as a beat frequency of 15 Hz. This is part of the reason some combinations of notes don't sound all that great when played simultaneously - together they form a beat frequency of ~15Hz or less. This is also the reason many low chords sound muddy and warbly.

Since the beat frequency between 0Hz (ie, silence) and B00 is roughly 15Hz, it makes sense that the brain stops hearing "notes" and starts hearing "beats" around this frequency.

Of course, no two ears are the same, so YMMV.
 

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