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2x10 stacked vertical?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by orskard, Jun 21, 2005.


  1. orskard

    orskard

    Mar 17, 2004
    Indiana
    Hey, i was wondering why 2x10 are always horz. and not vert. Wouldnt vert make the sound be up higher? Is there some big technical thing i dont know about? Im going to practice tomorrow and was wondering about it. Shouldnt the drivers be in a line? Like stacked on each other?
     
  2. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    Vertical is better. Horizontal is more common because it stacks better when you use multiple cabs, but Vertical offers better comb filtering.
     
  3. Slade N

    Slade N sunn #91 AZ Bands #?

    May 28, 2005
    az
    there is no reason that you cant stack vert. if i use one or two 2-10's i stack vert. i feel i get a better spread of sound. if i use 3 cabs i go horizt (vert would be too tall for me). i used to lay my 2-15s on their sides because i liked it hitting my feet not my ears.

    if you find a way you like then run with it.
    its just out of habit that most people stack the way they do. mostly because of how the logos sits. they like that back line to look smashing.
     
  4. thejohnkim

    thejohnkim

    Sep 30, 2003
    NYC
    if i have matching 210's i always stack vertically, and when i use my solo 210 most of the time, i always sit it up vertically also. I dont now if its more "proper" or not and for what reasons, but it sounds better to me when i have someone else playing my gear and i'm standing where the audience would be
     
  5. vertical tilted back 2x10

    :hyper:
     
  6. I've seen them built both ways-- Hatke's new Transporter 2x10 is vertical, tiltback, but other cabs I've seen-- the SWR version, or the Eden version, for example-- are horizontal, no tilt. So I guess, along with the technical issues (what's comb filtering?) that some of you know lots more about than I do, there's some degree of personal preference that figures in.
     
  7. popinfresh

    popinfresh

    Dec 23, 2004
    Melbourne, Aus
    Manufacturers put there logo on so it will be upright when the cab is stack horizontal, just because in a lot of rigs, that's how people have them when combined with other cabinets.

    Theres still no reason that you can't just put it the other way and have it vertical, that's completely fine.
     
  8. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    It's basically a characteristic of sound dispersion. When sound from a single source, such as a loudspeaker, is directed toward a listener at a distance, the first sound to reach you will be the direct sound, followed by slightly delayed reflected sound. We're talking in milliseconds here. There will be cancellation at certain frequencies where the two soundwaves are 180 degrees out of phase, and augmentation at other frequencies where the direct and the reflected sounds arrive in phase.

    What are the sound waves reflecting off? Everything, including each other. Vertically aligned drivers don't create as many frequencies canceling each other out.
     
  9. 2 Wayne Jones 2-10s stacked vert, and up off the floor!
     
  10. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Close. When you have two (or more) sources reproducing the same frequencies there are two (or more) paths to your ears, one from each source. As long as those paths are acoustically close to each other in distance there is no problem. But if the difference between the paths is 1/2 wavelength the sources are 180 out of phase and they cancel each other out. If they are a full wavelength apart they fully augment each other. At every other point they will either cancel or augment each other to some degree. Now a 100 Hz half-wavelength is 5.6 feet, so cancellation there is seldom a problem. But a 1kHz a half-wavelength is about 7 inches, so cancellation can easily occur there, as it can at any frequency that is short compared to the distance between the different sources.

    If drivers (or cabinets) are vertically aligned then whatever difference there is in the acoustic pathways will remain a constant as one moves from side to side in front of the source. No matter where you stand it will sound the same. But if the drivers (or clustered cabinets) are placed horizontally then the pathway differentials will shift as you travel from side to side in front of the source, and it will sound different in every location. This is called 'comb filtering', as the response curve looks like the teeth of a comb, with different frequencies having various amounts of augmentation or degradation depending on the pathway induced phase differentials present at the listening position.

    Drivers (or multiple cabinets) should never be placed horizontally, but unfortunately neither Leo Fender nor Jim Marshall, who set the standards for electric instrument speaker cabinetry, had any training in acoustic theory. They put drivers side by side because they didn't know any better, and the mold that they created is still in use, despite the fact that it's been known in the audio engineering community since at least 1930 that it's incorrect to do so.
     
  11. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    What, like this?

    [​IMG]

    I can concur with the wise men: It does sound far clearer like this, and really disperses evenly around the room. You do lose some boom due to the the LF coupling frequency shifting a bit lower but that's not a bad thing, the rig's already got oodles of deep bass.

    And no, it's never fallen over...

    Alex
     
  12. Yup. It's not that vertical stacking actually combs less, it's that it's far less noticeable because the listener typically stays in a constant vertical plane. This is why vertical line arrays work so well in PA systems.

    It's particularly important in a cab where you have the 12 or 10 reproducing the whole frequency range or with a tweeter crossed over at 4 or 5 kHz. Ideally your crossover point would be at or below the frequency whose 1/2 wavelength is equal to the spacing of the driver centers. So for 10" drivers tightly spaced you'd have to cross over at about 1k to avoid comb filtering. If you do that you can get away with side by side drivers.....
     
  13. Bassosaurus

    Bassosaurus

    Aug 27, 2005

    At 6'5" this is definitely the way i'd like to roll. I'm concerned about stability though. Seems like some drunk guy at a bar (or band member, maybe even me :( ) bumpin this would send that head a topplin '.

    A lot of the smaller cabs are not very deep either - like berg's 210 (and 15) are 11.5". Seems like a head would be precarious on top two of these???

    This seems to be working for some, but I'm interested in more comments on the stability. I'm coming off 2 410s - plenty solid but... well, you understand ;)
     
  14. ...I set it vertically to conserve floor space(big band), then I found out about the technical reasons to do so, & instantly felt smarter. :) Now I have a 1x10 combo & 1x10 ext. cab- I usually stack it vertically, but sometimes separate the cab from the combo & point one piece at me, monitor-style, & the other at the audience.
     
  15. Bassosaurus

    Bassosaurus

    Aug 27, 2005

    At 6'5" this is definitely the way i'd like to roll. I'm concerned about stability though. Seems like some drunk guy at a bar (or band member, maybe even me ) bumpin this would send that head a topplin '.

    A lot of the smaller cabs are not very deep either - like berg's 210 (and 15) are 11.5". Seems like a head would be precarious on top two of these???

    This seems to be working for some, but I'm interested in more comments on the stability. I'm coming off 2 410s - plenty solid but... well, you understand
     
  16. Thor

    Thor Moderator Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    That explains that ...

    And I always thought it was not letting the drummer use your
    comb because he might have lice. Live and learn. :eek: :p
     
  17. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    Vertical is my preferred approach, as well:

    [​IMG]

    And for a ridiculous rig:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. getz76

    getz76

    Apr 3, 2005
    Hoboken, NJ
    Tom, what kind of rack case is housing that Stewart and Kern?
     
  19. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    It's a generic SKB knockoff that I bought at my local shop. No markings whatsoever as to who made it, but the nice thing is that it's deep enough for a CA9 or a DB 359. I also have another very similar rack that says "Elephant" on it (like an actual logo - not just with a marker ;)), but is otherwise also unlabelled. They look like they came off the same line.

    Tom.
     
  20. getz76

    getz76

    Apr 3, 2005
    Hoboken, NJ
    -------OFF TOPIC-----

    Thanks, Tom.

    Just curious. I have my Demeter VTBP-201s/Stewart World 2.1 (powers my pair of Acmes) in a 4U Gator standard rack that works well. I hadn't found a 3U rack I really liked...

    I have the Kern IP-777/Peavey DPC 1400X (powers the Acmes sometimes and the Berg HT112/EX112 sometimes) in a 2U Gator standard rack.

    -------ON TOPIC--------

    I tend to stack my Acme Low B2's in the "standard" horizontal position because I think it looks cooler. ;) (actually, it is because I don't trust any drummer around something than can be knocked over).

    My Bergantinos are so small there's not much of a difference when stacked "horizontally" or "vertically."