• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

2x10 stacked vertical?

#22
GeorgeG said:
Hi,
Was wondering if anyone stacks schroeder 1210 & 1212 cabs vertically. Not sure if the angled speakers in these cabs work better in the horizontal position or vertical. Any opinions or thoughts on this ?

GeorgeG.
Click to expand...

I don't like my 1212 in vertical position. It seemed to take on an unpleasand mid-range character. I prefer the extra bass with the floor coupling, and the cab is clear and loud enough in horizontal position.
 
#24
BurningSkies said:
I don't like my 1212 in vertical position. It seemed to take on an unpleasand mid-range character. I prefer the extra bass with the floor coupling, and the cab is clear and loud enough in horizontal position.
Click to expand...

BurningSkies,
Did you have the angled speaker pointing upwards or towards the floor, when you tried vertically ?

GeorgeG.
 
#25
Crockettnj said:
Tombowlus-

i noticed the pumpin ethyl flyer in your pic... are you the bassist for them? !
Click to expand...

Why yes, I am!

Crockettnj said:
and, that is a SICK EA setup. those 3 on the right are gorgeous.
Click to expand...

Thanks! And that was back when I only owned six EA cabs! I'm up to 20, now! :bassist:

Tom.

P.S.
Yes, I know, I need help.
 
#26
vertical hands down. pete, bill, and mark hit on the reasons why, and I have tried enough configurations to say that it works just like that in the real world. Sure, it can look a little funny at times, but the sound is worth it.
 
#28
billfitzmaurice said:
If drivers (or cabinets) are vertically aligned then whatever difference there is in the acoustic pathways will remain a constant as one moves from side to side in front of the source. No matter where you stand it will sound the same. But if the drivers (or clustered cabinets) are placed horizontally then the pathway differentials will shift as you travel from side to side in front of the source, and it will sound different in every location.
Click to expand...
While this makes sense to me is this really what's going on with stacking bass cabs vertically? I'm sure it does sound different (never have stacked 10's vertically myself) but is it comb filtering that's accounting for the difference? I have a very rudimentary understanding but bear with me for a tic.

What you're saying about the sound being different as you move from side to side makes sense to me Bill and I'm sure that's at least part of the reason for vertical arrays on PAs. But isn't it true to say that comb filtering itself doesn't require movement of the listener? I mean, as long as the signal from one driver is delayed (by an increased distance to the listener, relative to a second driver) then comb filtering is occuring and the frequency response will have the characteristic dips?

If that's the case, won't stacking bass cabs vertically actually increase comb filtering (as percieved by the player) as the stack is less of a point source? I mean if you're standing in front of your vertical stack of two 2x10s the bottom driver is a lot further from your ear than the top driver and thus delayed (relative to your ear). If they're stacked horizontally then the top and bottom drivers are much closer together, reducing the delay and thus comb filtering problems for the player? In the case where the stage rig is more of a monitor for the player rather than for the audience's benefit, wouldn't a vertical stack be worse for the player if comb filtering were the issue?

I might be completely on the wrong track but it doesn't quite seem to add up to me??
 
#30
If that's the case, won't stacking bass cabs vertically actually increase comb filtering (as percieved by the player) as the stack is less of a point source? I mean if you're standing in front of your vertical stack of two 2x10s the bottom driver is a lot further from your ear than the top driver and thus delayed (relative to your ear). If they're stacked horizontally then the top and bottom drivers are much closer together, reducing the delay and thus comb filtering problems for the player?
Click to expand...
You've got it backwards. Comb filtering will always occur when you have more than one source of the same frequency. The key is controlling it. If the cabs are vertically stacked then the combing takes place on the vertical plane, so you will only hear shifting response if you move on the vertical plane; the response stays constant as you move across the soundfield because the pathway differential distance from each element to your ears also remains constant. With horizontal placement the pathway differential distance from your ears to the various point sources constantly changes as you move across the soundfield and therefore so does the response.
 
#31
billfitzmaurice said:
You've got it backwards. Comb filtering will always occur when you have more than one source of the same frequency. The key is controlling it. If the cabs are vertically stacked then the combing takes place on the vertical plane, so you will only hear shifting response if you move on the vertical plane; the response stays constant as you move across the soundfield because the pathway differential distance from each element to your ears also remains constant. With horizontal placement the pathway differential distance from your ears to the various point sources constantly changes as you move across the soundfield and therefore so does the response.
Click to expand...
I hear what you're saying about the response staying constant with a vertical stack as you move about horizontally and shifting as you move vertically Bill, makes sense. What I'm getting at is the frequency response measured at the player's ears standing in front of a vertical stack. Wouldn't there be more severe dips in the frequency response measured at this point with vertically stacked (say) 210s as opposed to horizontally stacked cabs due to the increased distance between the top and bottom drivers causing more relative delay at the measuring point (ie the player's ears)? Won't those dips be there even if there is no movement on the part of the player/measuring device? So although you may not get changes in response as you move horizontally wouldn't you still perceive a lumpier frequency response just standing still in front of a vertical stack (due to the increased relative delay)? Not being argumentative, just interested! :)
 
#32
What I'm getting at is the frequency response measured at the player's ears standing in front of a vertical stack. Wouldn't there be more severe dips in the frequency response measured at this point with vertically stacked (say) 210s as opposed to horizontally stacked cabs due to the increased distance between the top and bottom drivers causing more relative delay at the measuring point (ie the player's ears)?
Click to expand...
Yes. Who cares? Assuming that is, that the idea is to get the most uniform sound in the audience, not where you're standing. Although this also brings up the matter of off-axis response, which is quite poor above 1.5kHz or so with tens, so the lower to the floor they are the harder it is to hear yourself.
 
#33
billfitzmaurice said:
Yes. Who cares? Assuming that is, that the idea is to get the most uniform sound in the audience, not where you're standing. Although this also brings up the matter of off-axis response, which is quite poor above 1.5kHz or so with tens, so the lower to the floor they are the harder it is to hear yourself.
Click to expand...
Well like I mentioned in my first post Bill when the bass rig is just acting as the player's monitor and the PA is doing the work for the audience then I as the player care because the rig is only for me?? If vertical stacking actually makes the frequency response worse from the player's perspective then it's interesting (to me at least) why people are reporting that the vertical stack sounds better. (I'm assuming that it sounds better to them to stand in front of.) Maybe the improvement is coming from a combination of a tighter, more cutting sound (due to less coupling with the floor) and the fact that the top driver is simply closer to the player's ears (compensating for the poor off axis response you mentioned).

As I said I've never run a pair of 210s this way (never occured to me) but the best stage sound I've ever had has been with a pair of horizontally stacked 210s up off the floor on a crate. That configuration appears to have a few things going for it. It decouples the cabs from the floor (if that's what your looking for, ie more cut), it seems it reduces the comb filtering from the player's perspective and it gets the drivers more 'on axis' to the the player's ears (ie closer) In a monitoring environment it works well tonally as the punchy cut from raising the cabs off the floor blends well with the lows that come off the back of the PA. It's also stable so you do don't have to worry about your amp crashing to the floor (dang drummers :) ).

So maybe a vertical stack is the go if your rig is for the audience and horizontal if it's for the player? I'm going to have to try the vertical stack anyway!
 
#35
I don't think the vertical stack has comb filtering problems up close because the speakers closer to you are much louder (to you).
Click to expand...
Quite true, and it will just sound better because with one or more drivers closer to ear level you can hear the midrange instead of having it all pass by your belt buckle.
but the best stage sound I've ever had has been with a pair of horizontally stacked 210s up off the floor on a crate.
Click to expand...
The above still holds true.
So maybe a vertical stack is the go if your rig is for the audience and horizontal if it's for the player?
Click to expand...
Only if you stand quite still in one spot. Try it, you'll see.
 
#36
I've been running my rig stacked vertical since I went to BagEnd stuff (mostly because they put the handles like that!)...For at least a year now, I run my 1x18 on the floor with my rack atop that and the 2x12 atop the rack. First, it puts the drivers at ear level and having it separated from the floor and other cab seems to help the 'perceived' aspects of the midrange that cut through the band volume (drummers and guitar players...pptttt!).
Just my two-cents..seems to work. :bassist:
 
#37
billfitzmaurice said:
Only if you stand quite still in one spot. Try it, you'll see.
Click to expand...
Yeah I will. I'm quite a believer in trying to get gear and acoustics working for you before reaching for the eq. I think often it's not appreciated just how much impact this can have on sound (the recent thread where someone had their new rig set up in a corner and wondered why it was boomy/mushy is an example). Just for the sake of clarity when I was talking about horizontally stacked 210s I meant one cab on top of the other so there's two rows of two tens, not four tens in line, if you follow me.

edit: and yes I do get some stick from the band for standing quite still in one spot... ;)
 
#38
Just for the sake of clarity when I was talking about horizontally stacked 210s I meant one cab on top of the other so there's two rows of two tens, not four tens in line, if you follow me
Click to expand...
That's the worst possible configuration, as you get comb-filtering in both the vertical and the horizontal planes. That's what you get with the typical 4x10 or 4x12 and it's 110% wrong, but that's they way they make them because they give the buyer what he wants, not what he needs.
 
#39
billfitzmaurice said:
That's the worst possible configuration, as you get comb-filtering in both the vertical and the horizontal planes. That's what you get with the typical 4x10 or 4x12 and it's 110% wrong, but that's they way they make them because they give the buyer what he wants, not what he needs.
Click to expand...

Sure, but as the drivers are closer to a point source configuration doesn't that mean that the comb filtering will be a compromise in both planes, subjecting both the player and the audience to similar amount of combing, rather than one party getting all of it? Doesn't sound like too bad a compromise to me.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back