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3/4 vs. 6/8 (time signatures)

#101
Groove Master said:
Same as having measures of 2 beats or 4 beats. What makes the difference is like you noted is in the music phrase lenghts.

But again in you can have the same music written in either 2/4, 2/2 (cut-time) or 4/4. IMHO it does depend on how the music is written on paper and how the musicians relate to it.

The Hendrix's song is clearly in 12/8 with a strong 4 beats per measure.
The Animals' is not so obvious and could be open for a real debate on if it is a 2 beats or 4 beats groove ;)
Click to expand...

When is it a good idea to write in 4/4 with notation "2 eighth notes equals 1 quarter plus 1 eighth."
Sh.PNG


and when is it a proper thing to write in 12/8?

How would you noted the following song?
 
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#102
Whousedtoplay said:
When is it a good idea to write in 4/4 with notation "2 eighth notes equals 1 quarter plus 1 eighth."
View attachment 660163

and when is it a proper thing to write in 12/8?

How would you noted the following song?
Click to expand...

Jazz music is much easier to read in 4/4 instead of 12/8 because it is based mainly on the same swing 8ths notes rhythm and not so much on the whole triplet subdivision. The 12/8 groove has a strong subdivision and emphasize of the triplets 8ths notes in the rhythm and the feel.

So to put these kind of music on paper it is easier to read the jazz in 4/4 with the jazz notation and traditional 12/8 writing for the shuffle, Blues, African etc… music.
 
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#103
Whousedtoplay said:
When is it a good idea to write in 4/4 with notation "2 eighth notes equals 1 quarter plus 1 eighth."
View attachment 660163

and when is it a proper thing to write in 12/8?

How would you noted the following song?
Click to expand...

Perfect ambiguity between jazz and Blues grooves. I think a 12/8 would be appropriate here but again this piece could be written in 4/4 as well
 
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#104
Groove Master said:
Perfect ambiguity between jazz and Blues grooves. I think a 12/8 would be appropriate here but again this piece could be written in 4/4 as well
Click to expand...

Wayne Shorter's composition "Footprints" from Miles Davis' "Miles Smiles":
Miles Smiles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Wayne Shorter's composition "Footprints" appears on his earlier album Adam's Apple, but on Miles Smiles, the correlation between African-based 12/8 (or 6/8), and 4/4 is playfully explored. Drummer Tony Williams freely moves from swing, to the three-over-two cross rhythm—and to its 4/4 correlative. The rhythmic approach of Williams, and bassist Ron Carter, strongly suggests compound duple meter (12/8), rather than triple meter (3/4), because the ground of four main beats is maintained throughout the piece. The bass switches to 4/4 at 2:20. Carter's 4/4 figure is known as ''tresillo'' in Afro-Cuban music and is the duple-pulse correlative of the 12/8 figure. This may have been the first overt expression of systemic, African-based cross-rhythm used by a straight ahead jazz group. During Davis's first trumpet solo, Williams shifts to a 4/4 jazz ride pattern while Carter continues the 12/8 bass line. The following example shows the 12/8 and 4/4 forms of the bass line. The slashed noteheads indicate the main beats (not bass notes), where one ordinarily taps their foot to "keep time."
MD.PNG


 
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#105
Whousedtoplay said:
When is it a good idea to write in 4/4 with notation "2 eighth notes equals 1 quarter plus 1 eighth."
View attachment 660163

and when is it a proper thing to write in 12/8?

How would you noted the following song?
Click to expand...

I would never, ever, ever write swing in 12/8, and I can't stand when I'm given a chart where swing is written in 12/8. The convention of writing a swing eighth note in 4/4 is much cleaner. Swing in 12/8 it just unnecessarily difficult to read.

As one example that comes to mind, the musical "Honk" has a lot of swing written in 12/8. I hated reading that book. Similarly, the song "Back on Bass" in the musical "Closer Than Ever" is written in 12/8, when it would be much easier to read in 4/4.

Conversely, my band's library has over 800 charts, and I think pretty much without exception, all of the swing charts are written in 4/4 and not 12/8.

I've played multiple arrangements of Jump Jive & Wail, and it is always written in 4/4 with a swing 8th.
 
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#106
SteveCS said:
It is more about downbeats and the relative strength of the accents within the bar, and how these relate to the phrasing of the music, so yes the phrasing does to a large degree inform the choice of time signature. The phrasing might be related to the melody, harmony or both, as in the Hendrix. On the face of it, 12/8 looks like two bars of 6/8, but it is not. If we accept the convention that the downbeat (strong accent) falls on beat 1, in 6/8 there is a downbeat every 2 beats and in 12/8, there is a downbeat every 4 beats.

Further, in 12/8, there is typically a weak accent on the 3, in the same way as 4/4 has a weak accent on '3'. If necessary, accent marks can be used to indicate where something else is intended. It is the presence of the weak accent on 3 that contributes to that laid-back, 'lolloping' feel of the Hendrix. In contrast, the Animals has more of a 'rolling urgency' to it.
Count the Hendrix 1-and-a-2-and-a-3-and-a-4-and-a, and the Animals 1-and-a-2-and-a
Click to expand...

Why the following song is in 12/8 not in 6/8:
Led Zeppelin - I Can´t Quit You Baby

Or



But Wayne Shorter's "Lost" is in 3/4?
 
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#107
Whousedtoplay said:
Wayne Shorter's composition "Footprints" from Miles Davis' "Miles Smiles":
Miles Smiles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Wayne Shorter's composition "Footprints" appears on his earlier album Adam's Apple, but on Miles Smiles, the correlation between African-based 12/8 (or 6/8), and 4/4 is playfully explored. Drummer Tony Williams freely moves from swing, to the three-over-two cross rhythm—and to its 4/4 correlative. The rhythmic approach of Williams, and bassist Ron Carter, strongly suggests compound duple meter (12/8), rather than triple meter (3/4), because the ground of four main beats is maintained throughout the piece. The bass switches to 4/4 at 2:20. Carter's 4/4 figure is known as ''tresillo'' in Afro-Cuban music and is the duple-pulse correlative of the 12/8 figure. This may have been the first overt expression of systemic, African-based cross-rhythm used by a straight ahead jazz group. During Davis's first trumpet solo, Williams shifts to a 4/4 jazz ride pattern while Carter continues the 12/8 bass line. The following example shows the 12/8 and 4/4 forms of the bass line. The slashed noteheads indicate the main beats (not bass notes), where one ordinarily taps their foot to "keep time."
View attachment 660174

Click to expand...

A simpler explanation would be that the ternary groove is becoming a binary groove during the trumpet solo.
 
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#108
Febs said:
I would never, ever, ever write swing in 12/8, and I can't stand when I'm given a chart where swing is written in 12/8. The convention of writing a swing eighth note in 4/4 is much cleaner. Swing in 12/8 it just unnecessarily difficult to read.

As one example that comes to mind, the musical "Honk" has a lot of swing written in 12/8. I hated reading that book. Similarly, the song "Back on Bass" in the musical "Closer Than Ever" is written in 12/8, when it would be much easier to read in 4/4.

Conversely, my band's library has over 800 charts, and I think pretty much without exception, all of the swing charts are written in 4/4 and not 12/8.

I've played multiple arrangements of Jump Jive & Wail, and it is always written in 4/4 with a swing 8th.
Click to expand...

Would you write the following song in 3/4 or in 6/8:
Tear Drop (Live) by Ron Carter
 
#112
Whousedtoplay said:
Thanks for your answer because my next question was about that 9/8 and the differences between 3/8, 6/8, 12/8.
Click to expand...

In a slow tempo like your example:

3/8 = one and uh, one and uh, etc.

6/8 = one and uh, two and uh, one and uh, two and uh, etc.

9/8 = one and uh, two and uh, three and uh, etc.

12/8 = one and uh, two and uh, three and uh, four and uh

Listen to your example starting at around 8:45. Put your metronome on around 70 BPM and count "one and uh two and uh three and uh":

 
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