Gotcha. For me, that section has a very pronounced 6/8 feel because of the accents on the 1st and 4th eighth notes.
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3/4 vs. 6/8 (time signatures)
- Thread starter organworthyplayer337
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Gotcha. For me, that section has a very pronounced 6/8 feel because of the accents on the 1st and 4th eighth notes.
I don't know what rule this would fall under - if any - but when playing songs with multiple time signatures, which my band does quite a bit, I tend to match denominators across all of them. For example, if we have a part that's in 4/4 followed by a 7/8, 9/8, 5/8 or whatever, I tend to start thinking of the 4/4 as an 8/8.
Probably the math part of me wanting a lowest common denominator, but also because once there's an 8th note pulse in there somewhere, it can be awkward to try to transition back to a quarter note pulse.
Probably the math part of me wanting a lowest common denominator, but also because once there's an 8th note pulse in there somewhere, it can be awkward to try to transition back to a quarter note pulse.
Hi everyone! Wow, I got a lot of hits over the course of the night!
Thank you guys very much, I will find time to sit down and really try to understand this concept (there's ALOT of info here, which is good). And thanks for some tunes that "may or may not be" in 6/8
, that will help.
I've learned a lot just from glossing over a couple of post,
Thanks!
Thank you guys very much, I will find time to sit down and really try to understand this concept (there's ALOT of info here, which is good). And thanks for some tunes that "may or may not be" in 6/8
, that will help.I've learned a lot just from glossing over a couple of post,
Thanks!
Your first post in this thread was the post helpful, but this is plain and simple wrong.
3/4 can be a single beat per measure or a triple meter ( which just means 3 beats per measure).
6/8 can be a duple meter just like 2/4. It just means that there are 2 beats per measure.
12/8 and 4/4 are most commonly quadruple meters (4 beats per measure).
Read what I said, I was talking about the division of beat, not the measure.
There's this thing called subdivision which effects the feel of the music a lot more than the time signature. I don't care if the music has 28 beats in it, what matters is the subdivision of the beat
This is a really daft thread which, as far as I can see, is not only going to confuse the OP, but also shows how misunderstood this stuff is. Time signatures show the number of beats in the bar and the note value of each beat within the bar. It conveys to the reader where the accents are to fall, as intended by the writer - it is not open to interpretation or inference.
6/8 has 2 accents to the bar - always. The first is generally stronger than the second. 3/4 has three accents in the bar - always. The first is generally stronger that the second and third. If not, place an accent symbol above. Beams link together notes within the beat - you NEVER beam across beats - EVER. If you need to convey accents or beats outside of the current signature, change the signature of that/those bar/bars.
The Tull tune mixes 6/8 and 3/4 - listen to where the beats in the bar change from 1-2-3-2-2-3- to 1-2-2-2-3-2-, and how the chord/harmony changes support this in the different sections. There are also bars of 3/4 alternating with 2/4, (1-2-3-1-2-), but an no time is it truly 5/4, which would have only 1 strong accent on the '1'
6/8 has 2 accents to the bar - always. The first is generally stronger than the second. 3/4 has three accents in the bar - always. The first is generally stronger that the second and third. If not, place an accent symbol above. Beams link together notes within the beat - you NEVER beam across beats - EVER. If you need to convey accents or beats outside of the current signature, change the signature of that/those bar/bars.
The Tull tune mixes 6/8 and 3/4 - listen to where the beats in the bar change from 1-2-3-2-2-3- to 1-2-2-2-3-2-, and how the chord/harmony changes support this in the different sections. There are also bars of 3/4 alternating with 2/4, (1-2-3-1-2-), but an no time is it truly 5/4, which would have only 1 strong accent on the '1'
I'm not totally sure what point you're trying to address, but what you've posted here ties in exactly with what I said about your examples. This is the important bit:
Listening to those tunes, there's a definite triple feel to each of them rather than a strong slower two. Hence 3/4 would be my preference for scoring them (and pretty conventional).
You COULD write them in 6/8, of course. You can write any tune using any time signature you like. It's just a question of which is most convenient or easiest to read. Here's a famous bass riff, but written out using a very unconventional time signature. Just for fun - what is it?
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And thanks for some tunes that "may or may not be" in 6/8
Here's a fun one... While 6/8 really is usually subdivided by 2, there are times where there are 3 beats per measure. One reason that 6/8 and 12/8 are commonly used is that they are very flowing and flexible signatures. There is also 9/8 which is very similar to 3/4 except each beat has 3 eighth notes instead of 2.
Check out this example of the subdivision shifting from Debussy's "Clair de Lune". The time signature is 9/8. Most of the bars in the piece have 3 beats. But in the first and third measures there are only 6 notes and the pulse shifts to two beats.:
Easy------- One measure of 4 beats plus one measure of 2j beats------- lots of that goes on in Pop music without anyone realizing it (till you go to band practice)
Better be careful throwing out terms like "always"
I've played hundreds of pieces in my life where both 3/4 time and 6/8 time are conducted with 6 beats in the measure, usually at a largo tempo.
Nice choices. I play quite a few ethnic gigs; Mazukas are often called Mazurkas; And you can't do a gig at a Polish church without playing a couple of Obereks (often written in 3/8 time and felt "in 1").
Don't forget the Viennese waltz too.
I would disagree that it's a "daft" thread, and the OP has already said it's useful. I would agree, however, that some misinformation has been posted. For example, 6/4 is not a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 2/4, even though it sometimes gets used in notation like that..
Perhaps a really simple way of getting it is the old syllables trick? I was taught this in school when I was about 10. Read these, fairly slowly. Tap out the accents (strong beats) while you do it.
3/4 = Dave and Pete and Jim and Dave and Pete and Jim and...
6/8 = Mickey and Tony and Mickey and Tony and...
Try 'splining that to a drummer who struggles with 3/4!!!
Only because of the vast quantity of misinformation within. It pleases me when the OP gets the answer they need without too much sifting of wheat from chaff - there is actually plenty of both here. Your syllable example is exactly what I am talking about - in simple non-syncopated music the lyrical/melodic and/or harmonic rhythm is reflected in, not dictated by, the time signature. The problem with many Tull tunes are the extensive syncopation and polyrhythms, of which Tull and Anderson in particular with his vocal gymnastics, are truly masters. On reflection this is, on balance, a good thread. It is certainly more interesting than "Is my new P-bass a fake?".
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Simple answer (because I think that is all OP is looking for) - you can count 6/8 in 2 (with triples on each beat). Stop making it so #@@-in' complex.
Yes - it's a very simplified way of representing the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 and there are countless examples of where syncopation would move those accents around. I should know, I've been trying to chart this Snarky Puppy tune for my big band all weekend! Good grief.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Simple and clear enough for you OP?
If OP doesn't know the difference between the two, I think likely that is all he is looking for.
Right. And in case the OP finds it helpful to see it written out, here's how it would look:
3/4 is counted like this:
At slow tempos, 6/8 can be counted like this:
At faster tempos, it's usually counted like this:
Also, it's worth noting that the way the notes are beamed identifies graphically where the beat falls. In the 3/4 bars, there are three groups of notes, and in the 6/8 bars, there are two groups of notes. I think this is the point that @SteveCS was making in his post.
Hopefully this helps to simplify (and not further confuse) things.
