3/4 vs. 6/8 (time signatures)

[Matty Koff]

The funny thing is that the points made in the video are exactly the same as the points in the first four replies in thread:

• Both 3/4 and 6/8 have six beats per measure.
• 3/4 is three groups of two, and 6/8 is two groups of three.
• 6/8 is counted "one two three four five six." That produces two strong beats, so it can be counted in two ("one and uh two and uh" or "one le la two le la")
• 3/4 is counted in quarter notes: "one and two and three and"

But I'm glad to hear that the video helped to make it more clear for you. No offense taken.

Thanks Febs. Am I misinterpreting that you are saying the video did at least summarize up to the first 4 responses of this thread? Heh.

To anyone whom this may concern, I think I've made clear where I stand, but I'm just going to lay it out one last time just to be sure.

At no point did I tell anyone to ignore this thread in favor of that video. At no point did I ask anyone to stop dissecting the theory behind timing. I did however, after 4-5 pages of reading, stumble upon the video I linked after typing in exactly what the OP asked into youtube. This video very much simplified for me the difference between 3/4 - 6/8. It took the information I read, and turned it into stuff that makes sense to me now. Again.. I'm an audio learner. IT's hard to explain the disconnection I feel when trying to study something out of a textbook, as opposed to the same information being presented to me verbally, but.. I'm going to call the video I linked a collaboration with the information posted in this thread. It might not be as useful to someone who is more of a visual learner, but for me and people like me something along the lines of that video make the light bulbs turn on.

I'm going to bow out of this thread now before I go even further into explaining that I'm not traditionally taught, and the way I developed my internal beat is likely a bit unorthodox and how I sometimes play things that take me days to figure out what timing I'm playing in, but somehow I know it's in time, hence I'm able to get away with improvisation with my band. .. but please know I'm not saying my video is the end all on the topic.. I didn't mean to derail the thread. Just offering what helped me the most to understand the subject to another TB'er, in collaboration with what was already being said.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The funny thing is that the points made in the video are exactly the same as the points in the first four replies in thread:

• Both 3/4 and 6/8 have six beats per measure.
• 3/4 is three groups of two, and 6/8 is two groups of three.
• 6/8 is counted "one two three four five six." That produces two strong beats, so it can be counted in two ("one and uh two and uh" or "one le la two le la")
• 3/4 is counted in quarter notes: "one and two and three and"

But I'm glad to hear that the video helped to make it more clear for you. No offense taken.

It would have been a good idea for the drummer from the video to demonstrate those "two strong beats per measure" on his drums - show us some rhythm patterns related to his explanations.
What more, further videos with Portnoy (about 9/8 13/8, etc...) clearly demonstrated the idea.

I'm not very smart to discern 3/4 and 6/8 just by counting.
From my posted videos earlier about Samba in 3/4, that counting only confuses me because I can count "MY WAY", as I want.
(And it's OK for an amateur musician.)

Here is my simplified vision of 3/4 and 6/8.
If the drummer plays the kick (strong beat) on Beat 1 and the snare on Beat2 and Beat3 - it's 3/4.
If the drummer plays the kick on Beat1, the Hi-hat on Beat2 and Beat3, the snare on Beat4 (strong beat), the hi-hat on beat5 and 6 - it's 6/8.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

6/8 or 12/8. Now end of test, please.

Sorry if you think it's some kind of test. Not at all.
ALL MY POSTING (including all those "irrelevant" comments) are ONLY for one purpose - to provide answers with various "shades" of even a simple subject for those musicians who really want to learn and explore Music. What's more, to understand the subject is different from being able to teach that subject.
That's all.
Your comments showed a lot of knowledge of Music Theory.

Now, about that "test" with R.E.M.
Let's say, if I decide to play that song with the drum pattern as "Uhm - bah - bah, Uhm - bah - bah, etc...
where "Uhm" is the Kick on Beat1 and "bah" is the snare, then WHO IS TO JUDGE me if I write the same melody in 3/4? But...
Later in the song, the drums start playing the following pattern:
the kick on Beat1, the Hi-hat on Beat2 and Beat3, the snare on Beat4 (strong beat), the hi-hat on beat5 and 6; therefore, with my amateur knowledge, I would clearly say, "It's in 6/8", but...
Due to the chord change/harmonic rhythm, it's more comfortable for me to write it in 12/8 - One chord per Measure.
Once again, sorry for misunderstanding.

 

[Matty Koff]

It would have been a good idea for the drummer from the video to demonstrate those "two strong beats per measure" on his drums - show us some rhythm patterns related to his explanations.
What more, further videos with Portnoy (about 9/8 13/8, etc...) clearly demonstrated the idea.

I'm not very smart to discern 3/4 and 6/8 just by counting.
From my posted videos earlier about Samba in 3/4, that counting only confuses me because I can count "MY WAY", as I want.
(And it's OK for an amateur musician.)

Here is my simplified vision of 3/4 and 6/8.
If the drummer plays the kick (strong beat) on Beat 1 and the snare on Beat2 and Beat3 - it's 3/4.
If the drummer plays the kick on Beat1, the Hi-hat on Beat2 and Beat3, the snare on Beat4 (strong beat), the hi-hat on beat5 and 6 - it's 6/8.

@ about 1:09 in that video he demonstrates both timings hitting his sticks together only on the strong beat and using his voice to count the other beats.

 

[SteveCS]

Sorry if you think it's some kind of test. Not at all.
ALL MY POSTING (including all those "irrelevant" comments) are ONLY for one purpose - to provide answers with various "shades" of even a simple subject for those musicians who really want to learn and explore Music. What's more, to understand the subject is different from being able to teach that subject.
That's all.
Your comments showed a lot of knowledge of Music Theory.

Now, about that "test" with R.E.M.
Let's say, if I decide to play that song with the drum pattern as "Uhm - bah - bah, Uhm - bah - bah, etc...
where "Uhm" is the Kick on Beat1 and "bah" is the snare, then WHO IS TO JUDGE me if I write the same melody in 3/4? But...
Later in the song, the drums start playing the following pattern:
the kick on Beat1, the Hi-hat on Beat2 and Beat3, the snare on Beat4 (strong beat), the hi-hat on beat5 and 6; therefore, with my amateur knowledge, I would clearly say, "It's in 6/8", but...
Due to the chord change/harmonic rhythm, it's more comfortable for me to write it in 12/8 - One chord per Measure.
Once again, sorry for misunderstanding.

Hey I didn't mean to get narky. One after another just pressed the wrong button temporarily, but on balance I can talk this stuff for hours. Your analysis and reasoning are sound - 12/8 would be the most appropriate as there is a discernible accent in the middle of the measure that is weaker than the main pulse.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

@ about 1:09 in that video he demonstrates both timings hitting his sticks together only on the strong beat and using his voice to count the other beats.

Let's take the following book, "The Latin Bass Book" By Chuck Sher, Oscar Stagnaro.
(I really like all those "breathing" subtleties of Latin Music Groove.)

On page 73, there is the same clave pattern written 4 different ways.
Could your video explain why this or that arranger decided to write that clave pattern by using different notational variations?

 

[Matty Koff]

Let's take the following book, "The Latin Bass Book" By Chuck Sher, Oscar Stagnaro.
(I really like all those "breathing" subtleties of Latin Music Groove.)

On page 73, there is the same clave pattern written 4 different ways.
Could your video explain why this or that arranger decided to write that clave pattern by using different notational variations?
View attachment 660632

No.. the video explains the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 timing in a which is what the OP asked.. and also in a simple yet effective manner. I didn't see in the original post anything asking about "Why did such and such composer choose to write said song in x timing?" so I didn't provide an answer to that question.

Anyway.. I'm done with this discussion. I'm not here to prove anything to anybody.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Here is a track I played on that explores a 12/8 feel.
The basic feel might be called a "half-time shuffle", a.k.a. the "Purdy Shuffle", which was championed in pop/funk by drummer Bernard "Pretty" Purdie (see/hear Steely Dan's "Babylon Sisters", ).

Once again, thanks for the video.
It has my award, "the BEST Arrangement of the Decade."

 

[Whousedtoplay]

No.. the video explains the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 timing in a which is what the OP asked.. and also in a simple yet effective manner. I didn't see in the original post anything asking about "Why did such and such composer choose to write said song in x timing?" so I didn't provide an answer to that question.

Anyway.. I'm done with this discussion. I'm not here to prove anything to anybody.

I reminds me of a joke.
One young student cannot understand why a very knowledgeable and experienced PROFESSOR is having problems to answer a simple (at least that's what the young student thinks) question.
"It's because the less you know - the less time you need to spend in order to answer that question", says the professor.
"The more you know about that subject - the more time you need to spend in order to explain all the nuances about the subject."

Anyway, it's not some "American Idol" contest.
Thanks for your input in this very interesting thread.

 

[Matty Koff]

I reminds me of a joke.
One young student cannot understand why a very knowledgeable and experienced PROFESSOR is having problems to answer a simple (at least that's what the young student thinks) question.
"It's because the less you know - the less time you need to spend in order to answer that question", says the professor.
"The more you know about that subject - the more time you need to spend in order to explain all the nuances about the subject."

Anyway, it's not some "American Idol" contest.
Thanks for your input in this very interesting thread.

I'll admit a second time I'm no professor on the subject of music theory. My knowledge of theory is quite limited compared to that of a jazz major. However, without having all that knowledge instilled, or the ability to sight read for that matter, I am still able to play in 3/4 and 6/8 timing, and my band improv's at least once a practice, if not in between every other song. In a way I'm living proof that a simple understanding of how to count time signatures can go a long way, even though I tend to count without counting... as stated in a previous post my internal beat is pretty spot on and I tend to just develop a feel for rhythm as opposed to tapping my foot. I salute all of you who have more training, and more education in the subject of music theory. I enjoy learning what I can, but I tend to just play.. I mean no discredit to anyone's knowledge on the subject. But, I do believe firmly in the power of simplicity, and offered a simplistic approach to a question that has complicated answers. I'm leaving the complicated answers to everyone else.. and I hope my contribution helps the OP even just a little. I have been playing stringed instruments over half my life, and there are people who like what I do with it. I enjoy sharing my experiences.

Thank you, for your appreciation whoused. You're right..it's no contest. We're all just sharing what we have. Much love to all you tb'ers... forreal now I'm letting you guys get back on topic.

 

[organworthyplayer337]

@Matty Koff, I appreciated the video however I'm a visual learner especially when it comes something I already know I don't understand too well. The discussion early on in this thread really helped and thoroughly explain the difference to me
(OP) in a visual more in depth way, nothin' against the video

And like I said I already searched THEN came here hehe

 

[Matty Koff]

@Matty Koff, I appreciated the video however I'm a visual learner especially when it comes something I already know I don't understand too well. The discussion early on in this thread really help Ed thourogh

That's all good man. Glad one way or another you are finding what you need. I couldn't make your experience out in the OP or what depth of an answer you wanted, but hey, it may help someone who discovers this thread in the future. And I apologize.. I really had no intention of posting further after my contribution of the video I found.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Let's take Wayne Shorter's "Footprints"


Here are at least two charts with different time signatures for that song in 3/4 and 6/4:
Why?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I wish I had a simple explanation why we have a few time signatures for the same simple blues drum pattern.
All those patterns SOUND THE SAME.


4/4

6/8

and
12/8

 

[Whousedtoplay]

@Matty Koff, I appreciated the video however I'm a visual learner especially when it comes something I already know I don't understand too well. The discussion early on in this thread really helped and thoroughly explain the difference to me
(OP) in a visual more in depth way, nothin' against the video

And like I said I already searched THEN came here hehe

Let's take Melissa Etheridge's song, "I'm the only one". Even I can hear that shuffle drum pattern
- The kick on Beat1, the snare on Beat4 (strong beat); therefore, I would clearly say, "It's in 6/8" but, the melody's/song's phrases are much longer than 6/8; therefore, I would write it in 12/8.

But of course, we will have a lot of musicians ordering us to write that song in 4/4 as "Rock Shuffle".
Go figure.

 

[Groove Master]

Let's take Wayne Shorter's "Footprints"


Here are at least two charts with different time signatures for that song in 3/4 and 6/4:
Why?

View attachment 660753

View attachment 660754

I think it is up to the composer, arranger or copyist to choose what is the ideal way to write the music in an easy format for musicians to understand at first-sight how to go thru the piece of music.

In the NRB version it makes the page lay-out really clean by having less barlines because of the 6/4 format. This is just my personal opinion on this ;-p

 

[Don Kasper]

Yes - it's a very simplified way of representing the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 and there are countless examples of where syncopation would move those accents around. I should know, I've been trying to chart this Snarky Puppy tune for my big band all weekend! Good grief.

BB-
Yikes!
It sounds like it's a overall 10 beat grouping, first grouped 6 + 4 (from 0:00 to 0:47), then 5 + 5 (from 0:48 - 1:20), etc. How are you hearing this and writing it?
"You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!"
Thanks for posting this.

 

[Don Kasper]

Here is an example of a 3/2 feel, (during the melody only) - I would write it as "3/2" to convey the "slow 3" feel. I guess you could also write it as 6/4, with an indication that it be felt as a "Slow 3".
Thanks.

 

[BassyBill]

BB-
Yikes!
It sounds like it's a overall 10 beat grouping, first grouped 6 + 4 (from 0:00 to 0:47), then 5 + 5 (from 0:48 - 1:20), etc. How are you hearing this and writing it?
"You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!"
Thanks for posting this.

I tried to write the start out in 5/4, and then switched to 4+4+2, but whether the guys will be able to read it is another matter! It's going to be a bit challenging however I do it. Should be fun, though, if I ever get it finished (I have a folder full of half-written charts on my hard drive, much to my embarrassment).

 

[Humbled]

I've always used this:

I like to be in America; OK by me in America; everything free in America; for a small fee in America!

All of it is in 6/8 except "America" which each time it comes along, is in 3/4.

Clap it.