There is no 'best', 'worst', 'preference', 'alternative' or 'opinion' - it IS 3/4
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3/4 vs. 6/8 (time signatures)
- Thread starter organworthyplayer337
- Start date
There is no 'best', 'worst', 'preference', 'alternative' or 'opinion' - it IS 3/4
I've been recently re-listening to Steely Dan's albums.
(To me, Steely Dan kind of epitomizes my vision of Good Pop Music played by excellent musicians.)
Here is a very interesting song "Two Against Nature".
Should we write it in 3/4 or 6/8?
I would notate "Two against nature" in 3/4 because of the phrasing, harmonic rhythm, drumming pattern.
Any ideas?
Drums: Keith Carlock
Bass/lead guitar: Walter Becker
Rhythm guitar: Invalid Link Removed
Wurlitzer: Michael Leonhart
Piano/Rhodes: Donald Fagen
Vibes: Steve Shapiro
Timbales/percussion: Daniel Sadownick
Percussion: Gordon Gottlieb
Backup vocals: Carolyn Leonhart, Cynthia Calhoun, Michael Harvey
Bass clarinet: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Saxophone: Dave Tofani
Saxophone: Lawrence Feldman
Clarinet: Ken Hitchcock
Trumpet: Michael Leonhart
Trombone: Jim Pugh
Horns arranged by Michael Leonhart
(To me, Steely Dan kind of epitomizes my vision of Good Pop Music played by excellent musicians.)
Here is a very interesting song "Two Against Nature".
Should we write it in 3/4 or 6/8?
I would notate "Two against nature" in 3/4 because of the phrasing, harmonic rhythm, drumming pattern.
Any ideas?
Drums: Keith Carlock
Bass/lead guitar: Walter Becker
Rhythm guitar: Invalid Link Removed
Wurlitzer: Michael Leonhart
Piano/Rhodes: Donald Fagen
Vibes: Steve Shapiro
Timbales/percussion: Daniel Sadownick
Percussion: Gordon Gottlieb
Backup vocals: Carolyn Leonhart, Cynthia Calhoun, Michael Harvey
Bass clarinet: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Saxophone: Dave Tofani
Saxophone: Lawrence Feldman
Clarinet: Ken Hitchcock
Trumpet: Michael Leonhart
Trombone: Jim Pugh
Horns arranged by Michael Leonhart
Last edited:
It sounds like 6/4 to me but I'm a long way from being any kind of expert in this stuff.
6/4 = 12/8 = 6/8 x 2.
The harmonic pulse/rhythm, melodic phrasing, the drum rhythm pattern and its accents point me to 3/4, away from 6/8 x 2
You can argue whether a piece is 3/4 or 6/4 depending on where you draw the bar lines (e.g. All Blues can be notated as either a 12 bar 6/4 tune or 24 bars of 3/4) but I'm pretty sure that 6/4 is a different time signature to 12/8 because 12/8 (and 6/8) tend to have (or imply, at least) a triplet feel.
Excellent point.
There is no triplet feel; therefore, nothing to do with 6/8 or 12/8.
Now.
I say 3/4,
you say 6/4 (3/4 +3/4).
I look at the bass-line phrasing. It's a perfect 3/4 phrase.
Also, the rhythmic pattern (listen around 0:40) clearly accentuates that ONE - two - three, ONE - two - three, etc...
The harmonic rhythm, the melody rhythmic phrasing also suits better the 3/4 time signature.
Here is how I imagined the bass-line pattern (simplified version).
Febs has spoken, and I gracefully accept my mistake.
P.S. If I were given a sheet with the time signature 6/4 of this song, I would have silently re-written it as 3/4.
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Wow. Just got a hold of this thread.
The timing of the melody in the transcripted Thick as a brick is off.
My memory of the studio is: 1 New 2 shoes 3 are (two quavers slide on two notes) 1 worn (strong beat for 2 beats) 3 at & the.
The live versions linked has the word 'are' coming in at the & of the first bar but otherwise the same.
In both cases it is a case for the whole thing being in 6/8 with the word 'shoes' being an off beat quirk.
For the life of my I can't feel that song with a waltz feel, even partially. It's all 6/8 to me.
The timing of the melody in the transcripted Thick as a brick is off.
My memory of the studio is: 1 New 2 shoes 3 are (two quavers slide on two notes) 1 worn (strong beat for 2 beats) 3 at & the.
The live versions linked has the word 'are' coming in at the & of the first bar but otherwise the same.
In both cases it is a case for the whole thing being in 6/8 with the word 'shoes' being an off beat quirk.
For the life of my I can't feel that song with a waltz feel, even partially. It's all 6/8 to me.
I would write this in 3/2, as the feel is in a slow "3" (the 3 half-notes in each measure are the pulse to me). see attached below.
"6", implies a feeling of 2, such as a bright 6/8 Tarantella, for example.
YMMV.
What an exquisite and diplomatically crafted answer.
The most important thing is that you also felt that slow "3".
I'd say that "3/2" is closer to "3/4" than to "4/4+2/4".
I have some dim hope.
You count the eighths in 3/4; therefore, you get 6 eighth notes but there is no triplet 6/8 feel.
Now.
Let's take a look at this snapshot of the intro part of that "Two against nature" song (or "ONE (WUTP) against Everybody") from the editor screen.
Now, let's listen to the same spot.
http://cdn1.talkbass.com/data/attachment-files/2015/08/2580959_103a633d6ae7e2a6a6963f8b8facc480.mp3
Can you hear that repeated pattern at around 90BPM?
Next we have the keyboards.
Listen to the following snippet and continue counting in 3/4 at around 90BPM.
http://cdn1.talkbass.com/data/attachment-files/2015/08/2580962_8a82758502471f6acb5b829ff6158fdb.mp3
If you are comfortable with that 3/4, let's add some bass.
As you can hear, the bass has a repeating pattern.
Pay attention to the root of the chord.
How often it repeats itself?
If you take the everybody's approach as 6/4 = 4/4 + 2/4,
can you hear something VERY IMPORTANT at that 2/4 bar - a chord/harmony/melodic/etc... change?
http://cdn1.talkbass.com/data/attachment-files/2015/08/2580968_788fea905ee49ee3802d01c5f02eed4a.mp3
N.B. PLEASE DON'T GET DISTRACTED BY THOSE TWO CLAPS AT THE END OF ONE 3/4 BAR; otherwise, you will tend to make it MORE complex like 6/4! Those are only claps and DOES NOT require any special treatment in the time signature (unless you want it!).
Let's listen to some guitar soloing around 2:37 - 2:52.
Apply the same 3/4 count and check the harmonic rhythm. It changes PERFECTLY as 3/4 at 90BPM.
It's NOT 6/4 as 4/4 + that special 2/4.
http://cdn1.talkbass.com/data/attachment-files/2015/08/2580972_e04523b15560f78f40264dcc3fedcaf3.mp3
Without boring you too much, let's listen to the last measures of that song.
Please listen to the drummer's crash cymbal that almost accentuates a new 3/4 measure/bar.
http://cdn1.talkbass.com/data/attachment-files/2015/08/2580974_d17098eae1f2e5df6f4d1e36c65ed182.mp3
Once again, it's only my vision of the song's time signature.
I want to simplify it and make it more readable.
We can take a look at the melody's phrasing of 3/4 and analyze it but...
If you want to notate that song in 6/4 - you are the boss.
Everything you just wrote applies equally to 6/4 (4/4 + 2/4) at quarter note = 180 BPM as I hear it or 3/2 at half note = 90 as @iona bass hears it. We all agree as to the length of the phrasing. The only question is what is the best time signature to use for that phrasing.
I hear the accent noted in my examples as quarter notes. I also hear the second Ab in the first measure as being on a downbeat, rather than an offbeat. That's why I hear it in 6/4.
I don't think reading eighth notes in 6/4 is necessary any more complicated than reading 16th notes in 3/4.
YMMV.
Febs, can you find a good reason to write in 6/4 (as 4/4 + 2/4) by analyzing the main vocal line/melody, especially in Chorus?
Well, it's essentially the same explanation that I gave in my last post. I hear the accented notes as quarter notes:
Well, it's the perfect example of the way I hear the tune. You hear it differently. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that we're hearing it differently.
