• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

3015LF Substitute??

#21
rpsands said:
The Ciare weighs 8lbs more and is less sensitive in the bass region by 1-2db. It's also 80 dollars more expensive if you can even find one. It also has very low Q for a bottom driver...have you modeled it in a cabinet? The FR chart also looks kinda janky...enjoy crossing that over to a mid :)
Click to expand...

How do you compare sensitivity in the bass region, by these graphs?:eyebrow:

Yes, it has a low Q, but also a low Fs. I can tell you without simulating that the results will be good.

Crossing it to a mid will be not much of a problem.

Talking' about cross over, Greenboy, I want to send you a PM about your fEARful crossover but it seems you won't accept pm's.

Btw. Folks, I feel it's very tough to get some of you people to other thoughts. Especially those who think they know what they talk about but in fact they miss some knowledge and don't accept some of the facts. Sometimes I really have to shake my head. I think I'm outta here.:hmm:
 
#22
I compare by looking at the computed sensitivity of the 3015LF compared to the graph of the Ciare -- not looking at the charts, since Eminence's charts are a little goofy.

Have you loaded any of those drivers and dragged out the computed sensitivity yet? I'm guessing the Ciare will come in around 93-94db which is a bit less. Low FS is not always enough to counteract the low Q effects on bass region sensitivity -- it can help but is often not enough.
 
#23
tocs100 said:
(BTW even GreenBoy is in initial stages of designing an alt fEARful around the neo scarcity, to paraphrase at least a few recent posts.)
Click to expand...

I've talked to him about that -- don't hold your breath. My best advice is to just spend the money right now, today, on the driver that you really want. Buy once, cry once...;)

The price increase equates to at most two extra gigs to cover the cost.
 
#25
Ok so I modeled the Ciare driver Arjank is so hot for:

The 3015LF has a 3db advantage from 60 to 100hz (the money shot frequencies), in a fEarful type cabinet (4cf, 45hz tuning for the 3015LF, 40hz tuning for the Ciare - required to tame the midbass hump it gets otherwise).

They reach parity at 50hz, and the 3015LF tapers off a little quicker under 50hz.

Bottom line it'd take two of the Ciare woofers, twice the space and three times the money, to match up in the fEarful design.

The Ciare does have something going for it -- it can match a 3012LF...in a 2.5 cubic foot box tuned to 47hz, it kicks ass. Its much lower vas than the 3015LF and lower Q seems to make it more tolerant of stuffing.

Of course, paying 80 bucks more to match a 3012LF seems kind of stupid.

* Yes I compared computed chart to computed, in Winisd Pro. Computed sensitivity is 94.74 for the Ciare vs 96.56 for the 3015LF (~1.8db) as predicted.

* Max_SPL is where the Ciare seems to do pretty well. If you slam it with 1000w it does beat the 3015LF, before you factor in the insane power compression of throwing 1000w at a single woofer.
 
#27
Arjank said:
If you want most sensitivity from 60-100hz there are other options then a 15.
Click to expand...

It's a combination of factors; sensitivity, power handling, smoothness, extension. All of these play into why GB chose the 3015LF and why the Ciare is a terrible drop in replacement for a fEarful.

It wants a much smaller box and different tuning, and still is inferior to a 3012LF (which can be crossed over much higher and probably with a smaller parts count).
 
#28
tocs100 said:
(BTW even GreenBoy is in initial stages of designing an alt fEARful around the neo scarcity
Click to expand...

Maybe, at the speed of molasses. Right now, if I was starting fresh, just for myself, I wouldn't go back to things like the Kappa Pro series or a lot of others that have been mentioned that I had checked out and/or used years ago. I'm not setting out to bore myself and I'm not interested in going backwards to what I was using a decade or more ago. And the non-neo substitutes I could stomach are behemoths and cost a lot.

At the time I chose the 3015LF there was only one European candidate that really rang my chimes for general bass guitar use of all the EU neos that existed at that time, and that was the BMS 15N630. Great combination of weight, voicing, and bass rig power fit - for most people only the price and general availability was wrong. At market-practical intervals I have looked to see if there's been anything else that I would care about that's actually affordable and light and purpose-fit. Nothing has really jumped out at me.

Anyway, anyone who has been following this for five or six years will bet on European neo prices skyrocketing. So then - where's that leave anyone who just spent a bunch of time on new crossover designs and whatnot? What would motivate me to go down that loser road?

EDIT: Alex Claber and I looked at EVERYTHING in every size. This is all old news unless it is a very recent driver.
 
#29
greenboy said:
Right now, if I was starting fresh, just for myself, I wouldn't go back to things like the Kappa Pro series or a lot of others that have been mentioned that I had checked out and/or used years ago. I'm not setting out to bore myself and I'm not interested in going backwards to what I was using a decade or more ago.

.....What would motivate me to go down that loser road?
Click to expand...
The thing is, if we followed that line of logic, then we should all throw-out our classic Fender basses we "had checked out and/or used years ago....I'm not setting out to bore myself...going backwards to...a decade or more ago." Or is it different for gadgets than instruments, as the former depend on consumer-hysteria to always have it louder/faster/cheaper/smaller/lighter?

I just must not have been reading carefully in the fEARful Part 10 thread. I thought you too abhorred the neo-price-jacks and were foreseeing the 3015LF and similar being phased-out soon....my mistake if so--don't want to misquote anybody. :atoz:
 
#30
There is no limitation on old basses that prevents them from getting louder than a certain volume, and there's no circumstance in which you would need to carry an extra bass to be louder. That's the difference. :)
 
#35
Nice digression -- and to answer the rhetorical question; yes, I do try to use less of a commodity when prices go up.

It sounds like the answer to my original question is that Neo technology is what made huge displacement & efficiency drivers like the 3015LF possible, and there is no cost-effective ceramic corollary.
 
#38
greenboy said:
Want to try a car analogy next? ; } ...Methinks you want to justify something to yourself. Do what you want, for yourself. I simply stated why I don't care about lesser-performance drivers in boxes that were designed to give more broadband SPL in less space. Think of a 15/6 that now has less output capability than a 12/6... and what's a driver downgrade do to the poor 12/6? Then it becomes much like other 12" cabs.
Click to expand...

My forehead hurts even thinking of jumping into this thread...

Link Removed
 
#40
tocs100 said:
The thing is, if we followed that line of logic, then we should all throw-out our classic Fender basses
Click to expand...

Want to try a car analogy next? ; } ...Methinks you want to justify something to yourself. That's fine. Do what you want, for yourself. I simply stated why I don't care about lesser-performance drivers in boxes that were designed to give MORE broadband SPL in LESS space. Think of a 15/6 that would have less output capability than a 12/6... and what's a driver downgrade do to the poor 12/6? Then it becomes much like other 12" cabs.

Not too inspiring. For some other cabs like the Carvin LS1503 the case is not so clearcut however...
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back