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34.5" scale?

Hi,

This is a follow-up point I'd like to mention...

Much of this discussion has focused on the B-string response, and the effect of scale length on the low notes.

However, to my ear, the change in scale length is just as noticeable on the high strings. When you get up to a 6-string, IMHO the High C is far and away the most affected by scale.

F-Bass was the first boutique company to adopt the 34.5" scale on a production level. Not surprisingly, they are a specialty builder who for many years did a whole lot of 6-strings - arguably, the most well-known F-Bass is the AC6, and their star player is a hard-core 6-string advocate.

One of the other big-time 6-string evangelists, Anthony Jackson, has also used scale length as the primary means of adjusting the signature Fodera that bears his name. Most of his other specs have remained constant, but he has varied the scale by 2" over the years. He is notoriously picky about his sound, and about his setup and the resulting 'feel'.

I would venture that 34.5", in the context of a 6-string bass, is a clear winner over 35", as a practical and valid compromise between B-string clarity without C-string stridency.

True, there are dozens (at least) of factors that affect the tone and 'feel' of a bass. Many of these, even when building from scratch, are hard to control predictably. Body wood density, for example, and even neck stiffness can vary considerably from piece to piece, and even from one end of a plank to another. Furthermore, there is not a direct, linear, predictable curve to the results they will yield.

For example, I have several times worked with batches of 2-3 basses built with both necks and bodies from the same planks, fingerboards from the same cuts, etc. etc. Not only did their sound vary considerably from bass to bass, but it sometimes did so counterintuitively - I've heard bigger, stronger bass from instruments with more flexible necks, and sometimes the other way around. There is so much interaction and interference between these physical elements that even an experienced builder is often just taking their best guess.

By contrast: there are some elements that, IME, can be controlled by the builder, yielding a fairly predictable result.
Pickup position would be a big one. Scale length is another.
A change in either will have a much more consistent effect
across a large sample of instruments than changing something
like body wood density, or even species - poplar to alder, for example, or wenge to rosewood or even ebony.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I'm not saying it has a bigger effect - I'm saying a more consistent one. On the whole, when trying to predict the character of an instrument, scale length is pretty high on the list of factors that I, at least, will consider. Based on my experience building, I'll say that holding all other things equal, it would be among the most effective variables in changing the sound, feel, and responsiveness of an instrument.

Compared to changing the pickups, for example, let's make the following analogy: If there's music playing on your iPod, changing the pickups is like changing your headphones.
Changing the scale length is more equivalent to changing the music itself.

Geez - every time I start typing, here I go again.

Peace,
Martin
 
First I want to thank you Martin for the insightful, thorough, and empirical observations you've contributed to this thread...very refreshing, thought-provoking, and enjoyable to read.

However, I may be missing something; it seems to me from this quote (and especially the conclusion I presume you're implying from the bolded part)

to my ear, the change in scale length is just as noticeable on the high strings. When you get up to a 6-string, IMHO the High C is far and away the most affected by scale.

One of the other big-time 6-string evangelists, Anthony Jackson, has also used scale length as the primary means of adjusting the signature Fodera that bears his name. Most of his other specs have remained constant, but he has varied the scale by 2" over the years. He is notoriously picky about his sound, and about his setup and the resulting 'feel'.

I would venture that 34.5", in the context of a 6-string bass, is a clear winner over 35", as a practical and valid compromise between B-string clarity without C-string stridency.

...that you're suggesting a shorter scale length would yield a better sounding/feeling high C string, at least to someone with as discerning an ear/touch as Anthony Jackson.

Yet the current Fodera Jackson Presentation Contrabass has a 36" scale length.
 
My .02 are that having owned a Modulus Q-5 and a Lakland 55-94 deluxe, and finally a Sadowsky M5-24, I prefer the 34 inch scale. I have really small hands, and my hands got really tired on the Lakland, during a long and hard jam. I use the B string ALOT, and the Sadowsky just kills it. The Modulus had almost TOO powerful of a b string, it overwhelmed the rest of the bass. To me, the 34 inch neck is the right tension and tone most of use are used to (thanks Leo!)
I have always wanted to play a Dingwall Super J. A 32.5 G string, and a 34.25 E string, and 35 inch B. Seems like the best possible scenario to me, especially because I have small hands, yet love a fiver. Supposed to get a great vintage like vibe on the D and G. Anyone have any thoughts about that?
 
Hi,

Just to clarify...

AFAIK Anthony's most recent Fodera is 34" again.
If that's not true, let me know!

To my ear, the shorter length does benefit the C-string,
which can start to sound 'stiff' and harsh as the scale increases.

Cheers,
Martin

I think it's still 36" - he's got some recent posts on TB about it.

I'm personally very interested in exploring 34.5"...not so much for B string response, but I heard that it helps with dead spots because it shifts them? Any truth to this?
 
We often hear marketing that a bass guitar has an incredible 'low b' with piano like tone - now, have any of you ever tried to pluck the strings on the inside of a piano? If you haven't, you should give it a shot. The strings have tension of about 425lbs. Scale length does affect string tension; however, it isn't the only variable. Great thread all... stay warm!

They say "Piano-like". Not "piano string-like".

:cool:
 
This is another one of those topics where people are extremely comfortable making the kneejerk "marketing" response. Beats seriously looking at the issue. Much like the woods the instruments are made of, there's a strong camp that think it hardly matters... if it even matters at all.

I'm glad to see Martin chime in. As an experienced luthier, he's basing his opinion on what he's actually experienced with like instruments. Is that more valid than someone saying they've played all sorts of various basses, most of which have nothing in common with each other?

Sorry, I think so.

I get people frequently asking me what scale my Brubakers are after playing one... because they don't know. Because Kevin Brubaker doesn't market that information. He just builds as a standard scale where he's felt he got the best overall response with his instruments.

People act like it's impossible for someone to play multiple scale length examples on the same model from the same builder and hear and feel a repeatable difference and PREFER that difference.

IOW it's Monday on Talkbass.
:cool:
 
I get people frequently asking me what scale my Brubakers are after playing one... because they don't know. Because Kevin Brubaker doesn't market that information. He just builds as a standard scale where he's felt he got the best overall response with his instruments.

This is the point many of us on this thread are tying to make. Play the bass. If you dig it, you dig it. Kudo's for Kevin to not promoting the rubbish of '35" for a great B string', or '34.5" scale as the best of both worlds'.

If a bass plays and sounds good, it does. There is no meaningful correlation between scale length and anything but a slight tension difference and a touch wider feel in the first position or so.

Those who buy a bass because of the scale length, or don't buy a bass because of the scale length (other than those who are extremely sensitive to the minor fret distance difference that you can feel in the first position) are possibly eliminating great 5+ string basses from their consideration set, or buying a bass that might not fit their needs based on overemphasizing a very minor component (although real one) to sound and feel or an instrument.
 
If a bass plays and sounds good, it does. There is no meaningful correlation between scale length and anything but a slight tension difference.

.

I agree with this up to a point, as it regards tone, however I have found that I do have trouble playing a four hour rehearsal with busy bass parts on a 35 inch neck, due to my girlish hands.

For me to play a five, I have found that 34 inch necks, with light strings suit me, and I am considering just going to back to only playing 4's. That is why I am so intrigued by the Dinwall Super J, as the very light tension of the top 3 strings might compensate for it being a 5.
 
I agree with this up to a point, as it regards tone, however I have found that I do have trouble playing a four hour rehearsal with busy bass parts on a 35 inch neck, due to my girlish hands.

For me to play a five, I have found that 34 inch necks, with light strings suit me, and I am considering just going to back to only playing 4's. That is why I am so intrigued by the Dinwall Super J, as the very light tension of the top 3 strings might compensate for it being a 5.

+1.. that's why I specifically mentioned that those who are sensitive to the somewhat wider fret distance in first position might have an issue with a longer than standard scale. The good news is, you won't give anything up going from 35" to 34" in a 5 string, IF the instrument is constructed properly. If you need a touch more tension on the B string, just kick up the B string gauge a couple of hundreths and be happy:bassist:
 
Hey- I'm putting a finer point on my preferences in 5 'ers. After starting out w/ Laklands I find I prefer a shorter (34") scale. I just stumbled on a Nordy which looks sweet in every way BUT...it's 34.5" scale:eyebrow:. What is the reason behind this? Does it play easier than 35" scale? Is it noticable different from 34"? Anybody have first hand experience with this?

My F-Bass has a 34.5" scale, and it plays very close to a 34", you notice the longer scale in the first 5 frets, and then it´s so close to 34", you don´t feel much difference. The idea behind that is to make the B and E sound thicker and punchier, while having the D- and G- string sound smooth. 35" tends to make D- and G- strings sound harsh because of the added tension in comparison to 34".
 
+1.. that's why I specifically mentioned that those who are sensitive to the somewhat wider fret distance in first position might have an issue with a longer than standard scale. The good news is, you won't give anything up going from 35" to 34" in a 5 string, IF the instrument is constructed properly. If you need a touch more tension on the B string, just kick up the B string gauge a couple of hundreths and be happy:bassist:

+1. I have always liked a beefy B string set pretty high. I currently am using TI flats, with that .136 b string, and this is happiest I have ever been with my B string tone. This is on a Sadowsky Metro M5-24 and it sounds amazing. Sadowsky taught me I don't need a 35 inch bass to have a great B string.
 
+1.. that's why I specifically mentioned that those who are sensitive to the somewhat wider fret distance in first position might have an issue with a longer than standard scale. The good news is, you won't give anything up going from 35" to 34" in a 5 string, IF the instrument is constructed properly. If you need a touch more tension on the B string, just kick up the B string gauge a couple of hundreths and be happy:bassist:


Major point: all xx" scale basses are not alike. I have played 34" basses that were more of a stretch than some 35"ers. More than once.

A major clue can be bridge placement IME.