3Leaf Audio Club - Episode 2

[labeledbass]

Well, before Spencer had a few handfuls of dealers that would help move his production. Most didn't get many, but a couple had 30-40 presale slots. I'm sure he cut them a deal on quantity, I even remember sales on overstock for really good prices. Now it's flipped the other direction, no more dealers, and back to more boutique builder practices. Generally you go the opposite direction, but I understand what he went through warranted the nix of dealers.

It's just funny the pedal went through 4 changes of price evolution, and it wasn't even for sale lol -

Not all boutique builders (which is very loose use of the word these days) have to be expensive, I hope that doesn't become a prerequisite for boutique gear. One of major reasons I can afford so many, is because they weren't expensive..

 

[kranahan]

You guys are correct about supply and demand but you forgot about one key ingredient. Flippers gonna flip! Flipping will be at record high prices because the base price is higher now.

Realistically, is a batch of 50 pedals going to meet the demand of hundreds or possibly thousands of people? Absolutely not.

Does that mean we’ll see a couple reselling at the “new” price? Sure. But the majority will be on the market for a profit. That’s just how 3Leafs are sold on the used market these days.

 

[Grahams Groove]

I hadn't really thought much about the profile of players who have publicly endorsed and/or used 3Leaf pedals. For stuff that is not a staple like a dirt pedal, there are some big names that use or have used his stuff. Off the top I'm just thinking of:

Victor Wooten, Tony Levin, Paul Turner, Bootsy, Tim Lefebvre (duh), Ian Allison, and Ryan Stasik. I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

 

[Erithon]

Then if they don't sell, it's not really a problem.

If there is no demand for a given price, the seller is either going to keep it forever, or lower the price at some point to meet a realistic demand and get rid of it.
Some may expect the market to go up with the influence of a few overpriced ads, but buyers all have psychological limits.

Again, you are right in theory but that's not how the boutique markets always works. As I said in my previous post, some sellers never lower their prices. They post it at one point in time and then don't adjust as the market changes which is why you still see some early 2022 pandemic pricing on Reverb even now.

I disagree that it's not a problem: if they don't sell, it is a problem because less informed people see those prices and think they are competitive and then list their stuff up there. It perpetuates the cycle and keeps these pedals out of the hands of folks who'd like to try them and working musicians who could actually use them. Perhaps not forever, but certainly for a time and that is a problem.

I hadn't really thought much about the profile of players who have publicly endorsed and/or used 3Leaf pedals. For stuff that is not a staple like a dirt pedal, there are some big names that use or have used his stuff. Off the top I'm just thinking of:

Victor Wooten, Tony Levin, Paul Turner, Bootsy, Tim Lefebvre (duh), Ian Allison, and Ryan Stasik. I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

Thank you, Graham. I couldn't think of all the names. You've said this much better than I did. The difference between 3 Leaf and Broughton is considerable when all those names are listed out!

 

[Romain909]

Well, before Spencer had a few handfuls of dealers that would help move his production. Most didn't get many, but a couple had 30-40 presale slots. I'm sure he cut them a deal on quantity, I even remember sales on overstock for really good prices. Now it's flipped the other direction, no more dealers, and back to more boutique builder practices. Generally you go the opposite direction, but I understand what he went through warranted the nix of dealers.

It's just funny the pedal went through 4 changes of price evolution, and it wasn't even for sale lol -

Not all boutique builders (which is very loose use of the word these days) have to be expensive, I hope that doesn't become a prerequisite for boutique gear. One of major reasons I can afford so many, is because they weren't expensive..

Unfortunately, many collectors or enthusiast have an irrational behavior. When they are looking for rare OR high end product, scarcity and unavailability are 2 conditions that boost their interest. The higher the price, the higher the demand (luxury good in economics).

I used to sell prototype trading cards. Extremely rare since only 82 copies are known in the world. Back in 2019, the cheapest ones I listed at $30 would not sell. I kept many of them since I was tired messaging people around.
I have spent the next 3 years talking about them here and there and kept saying none were for sale.
Guess what. I have never received that many messages than the day they were listed for $2000. Much easier to sell for $2000 with the "holy grail" story behind it than for $30 with limited explanations.

The same would apply, IMHO, to a pedal that would be (let's say) better than a 3 Leaf BUT that would be immediately available AND cheap. The price and scarcity make at least 80% of the hype around something.

So yes. Provided the products themselves are good enough, I guess it is in the boutique builders' interest to take their time, to be hard to reach and to display high price. If subtle, it works very very well.

 

[Romain909]

Again, you are right in theory but that's not how the boutique markets always works. As I said in my previous post, some sellers never lower their prices. They post it at one point in time and then don't adjust as the market changes which is why you still see some early 2022 pandemic pricing on Reverb even now.

I disagree that it's not a problem: if they don't sell, it is a problem because less informed people see those prices and think they are competitive and then list their stuff up there. It perpetuates the cycle and keeps these pedals out of the hands of folks who'd like to try them and working musicians who could actually use them. Perhaps not forever, but certainly for a time and that is a problem.

Yes, that's true. It is an incentive to list them at a high price. But in the end, if they never ever sell, I would say the prices will still adjust down, at least for the sellers that actually want to sell.

 

[kranahan]

Again, you are right in theory but that's not how the boutique markets always works. As I said in my previous post, some sellers never lower their prices. They post it at one point in time and then don't adjust as the market changes which is why you still see some early 2022 pandemic pricing on Reverb even now.

I disagree that it's not a problem: if they don't sell, it is a problem because less informed people see those prices and think they are competitive and then list their stuff up there. It perpetuates the cycle and keeps these pedals out of the hands of folks who'd like to try them and working musicians who could actually use them. Perhaps not forever, but certainly for a time and that is a problem.

Pretty spot on. I’ll add that less informed people can be grouped with flippers, collectors and people with high price thresholds. All of those people ruin the used market, IMO.

 

[jdjk7]

Those new Doom 2 enclosures look sick.

I've been on the list for a while to get a replacement for my blem/weak finish Octabvre III enclosure. My Doom 2's not one of the ones with finish issues, but I do have the thought of asking if I can just order one of the new enclosures by itself and re-house the pedal. Would give me a nice matching pair. I suspect not, but it's a cool thought.

 

[jdjk7]

Although I guess now that I look closer, they aren't super matchy. *shrug*

 

[Maxi Funkl]

Not willing to pay an over inflated used market price for a pedal I might not like. Then have to go through the process of putting it up for sale just to recoup my investment.

I've seen some Protons decently priced but everything else is ridiculous IMHO. But if folks are paying those prices then this won't change.

 

[Erithon]

Yes, that's true. It is an incentive to list them at a high price. But in the end, if they never ever sell, I would say the prices will still adjust down, at least for the sellers that actually want to sell.

Of course. But that's the weird thing: there are sellers who seemingly don't. I used to really want a Cali76 TX-LP compressor. I owned the TX-L, but I wanted the version with parallel compression. The only one available was listed for the outrageous price of $3K on Reverb. I spoke to the seller about it and he said it's because he didn't want to sell, he was just tired of folks seeing it on his board and asking to buy it. So he listed it for $3K and would then direct folks to Reverb whenever they wanted to buy it. I watched that listing for over 2 years. Along the way a couple other TX-LPs were also listed and, go figure, they all were about $3K. All because of one "seller" who didn't really want to sell. It's not listed anymore, thank goodness.

Unfortunately, many collectors or enthusiast have an irrational behavior. When they are looking for rare OR high end product, scarcity and unavailability are 2 conditions that boost their interest. The higher the price, the higher the demand (luxury good in economics).

Exactly. Market theory breaks down when sellers and buyers act irrationally. And they do. Oh yes, they do.

So yes. Provided the products themselves are good enough, I guess it is in the boutique builders' interest to take their time, to be hard to reach and to display high price. If subtle, it works very very well.

I don't think this is the case with pedals. It's true for bespoke instruments where a luthier can only produce 8 or 12 a year. Pedals can be hand-build, they are not uniquely speced or appointed (not generally, and not in 3 Leaf's case). If profit is the goal, volume is in boutique builder's interest. Spencer isn't trying to take his time to increase price: he builds slowly because he builds part time. He plays out a lot. And, of course, skis. Sounds like a great life.

 

[jdjk7]

Not willing to pay an over inflated used market price for a pedal I might not like. Then have to go through the process of putting it up for sale just to recoup my investment.

I've seen some Protons decently priced but everything else is ridiculous IMHO. But if folks are paying those prices then this won't change.

I had the good fortune to get my collection back when prices were "a little higher than new", if not new from Spencer... Octabvre III, Chromatron, Doom 2. Previously owned Octabvre Mini, Octabvre II, and Proton V4. I absolutely would not be paying the price some are asking.

 

[WG Plum]

Thank you, Graham. I couldn't think of all the names. You've said this much better than I did. The difference between 3 Leaf and Broughton is considerable when all those names are listed out!

And thank goodness for us plebes.

 

[Erithon]

And thank goodness for us plebes.

Haha, right? It was hard enough to trade for my Sunray and Quicksilver. If I had to compete with more than just TalkBass... well, I wouldn't own my favorite overdrive.

 

[jdjk7]

So yes. Provided the products themselves are good enough, I guess it is in the boutique builders' interest to take their time, to be hard to reach and to display high price. If subtle, it works very very well.

I don't give much to builders who do any of these, let alone all of them. It's possible to be successful and contribute to the craft without being insufferable.

Funny enough given the previous post, the chief example I was thinking of when thinking of a boutique builder who isn't carrots to the consumer is Broughton. Designer knows how to make a bass circuit sound good, extremely fair prices, regular releases, frequently trying new ideas, etc... he's limited in production, and his batches are a bit of a limiting factor to access, but it requires only a modicum of effort to wake up a little early (for me) in the morning with my PayPal ready. Unless it's a super crazy circuit that's limited to 15 units or under, OR you live in a time zone where drops occur in the middle of the night, it is not hard to get one if you both want it and mean it. But even for the time zone thing, he does releases at different times of day other than morning in EST for this exact reason.

 

[Romain909]

Of course. But that's the weird thing: there are sellers who seemingly don't. I used to really want a Cali76 TX-LP compressor. I owned the TX-L, but I wanted the version with parallel compression. The only one available was listed for the outrageous price of $3K on Reverb. I spoke to the seller about it and he said it's because he didn't want to sell, he was just tired of folks seeing it on his board and asking to buy it. So he listed it for $3K and would then direct folks to Reverb whenever they wanted to buy it. I watched that listing for over 2 years. Along the way a couple other TX-LPs were also listed and, go figure, they all were about $3K. All because of one "seller" who didn't really want to sell. It's not listed anymore, thank goodness.


Exactly. Market theory breaks down when sellers and buyers act irrationally. And they do. Oh yes, they do.


I don't think this is the case with pedals. It's true for bespoke instruments where a luthier can only produce 8 or 12 a year. Pedals can be hand-build, they are not uniquely speced or appointed (not generally, and not in 3 Leaf's case). If profit is the goal, volume is in boutique builder's interest. Spencer isn't trying to take his time to increase price: he builds slowly because he builds part time. He plays out a lot. And, of course, skis. Sounds like a great life.

Sounds like a great life !

 

[jdjk7]

Spencer isn't trying to take his time to increase price: he builds slowly because he builds part time. He plays out a lot. And, of course, skis. Sounds like a great life.

I've heard some people be pretty harsh on Spencer. FWIW, I'm just glad he does what he does at all. I'm not in a place to judge what he does with his life and whether it meets my interests.

 

[Romain909]

I've heard some people be pretty harsh on Spencer. FWIW, I'm just glad he does what he does at all. I'm not in a place to judge what he does with his life and whether it meets my interests.

He likes mountains, Ducati and bass pedals.
He must be a good man haahha

 

[labeledbass]

I've heard some people be pretty harsh on Spencer. FWIW, I'm just glad he does what he does at all. I'm not in a place to judge what he does with his life and whether it meets my interests.

Two headed coin, I firmly believe his talkbass "encounter" is completely and utterly discusting, he got steamrolled and it wasn't his fault.

On the other hand, I have great respect and support for someone who can deliver an affordable product that everyone can have an opportunity to try, and possibly open up a new way of playing.

 

[jdjk7]

Two headed coin, I firmly believe his talkbass "encounter" is completely and utterly discusting, he got steamrolled and it wasn't his fault.

On the other hand, I have great respect and support for someone who can deliver an affordable product that everyone can have an opportunity to try, and possibly open up a new way of playing.

I wasn't present, so I've only ever heard secondhand accounts. Didn't even remember that it happened, tbh.