3Leaf Audio Club - Episode 2

[jdjk7]

It's his prerogative, I guess. There's something to be said for uncompromising vision, but there are many varieties of uncompromising vision... some are less practical than others. If his vision is truly part of what's keeping 3Leaf going, then I guess that is what it is.

I suppose I'm biased in this discussion, because I already have a Octabvre/Doom 2/Chromatron trifecta, and I'm not unhappy with the prices I paid for any of them. So unless I decide I want something like an LBB or Enabler, or unless Spencer does something new, I'm not truly looking at the 3Leaf market as a buyer.

 

[Erithon]

That may have been true at some point, but the 125B Hammond enclosure equipped with top jacks is a powerful thing. I would go as far as to say that I don't see a reason for a pedal to be smaller than that. When you do get smaller than that, the pedals become so small that if you make efficient use of their size by putting them as close as they can be to one another, you run into issues with them being too close together. This is much more true of the 1590A than of 3Leaf's enclosures, but even the 2mm difference in width between the 3Leaf Mini enclosure and a 125B is somewhat noticeable if you've got several pedals right up against one another. You kind of have to be an accomplished tap-dancer at that point. A row of top jack 125Bs, however, wastes almost no space and still maintains a usable spacing for most peoples' feet.

The other side of this, to me, feels like a question of values. To me, a custom-manufactured enclosure just doesn't feel like something a pedal needs. It doesn't impact the sound. Unless there's some very specific reason a pedal needs to be in a special enclosure, it just seems like fluff to me. Being in an appropriately-sized enclosure is important, but there are many sizes available to builders now. I would take a savings on price from using a standard die-cast enclosure than the minor space savings/aesthetic quality of a custom-made one any day.

I guess there's a difference in artisanship between two extremes: do we a) spare no expense and make the best product, or do we b) focus/optimize on only the parameters that matter to the sound and make the most effective product?

More and more lately, I find myself valuing makers who take the latter approach. A very good example of this is Barefaced Audio cabinets... they went out of their way to hammer out all of what a speaker cabinet needs to sound good, and then built everything else around that. It's not flashy, and the manufacturing is nowhere near as pornographic as some other cabinets I've seen, but what it lacks in those qualities it makes up for in being the best sounding cabinet that weighs less than some solid state heads and fits in the front seat of my car. They (and other makers) achieve these seemingly contradictory qualities by understanding what a product does and does not need in order to be most effective.

Everything you say here is valid and understandable. I fully concur it's a matter of values, and mine are different than yours

1. I like my pedal enclosures as small as possible. That gives me the choice of how close to space them and whether to add a stompswitch topper. Building them to 125B or 1590BB (when unnecessary) removes that choice.
2. I choose option A: spare no expense and make the best pedal possible. I'm not a collector so I'd rather have one octave pedal that is the best than four or five different octave pedals that are all decent. I know I'm different than most of TalkBass: everyone else seems to have three or more bass guitars, but I own one bass guitar because, to me, it is the best. And I own one double bass (not the best, that's too expensive), but certainly good enough: fully carved, solid wood.

It's funny you mentioned Barefaced as a counterexample because I see Barefaced as very much so the same thing as 3 Leaf: the best product. I own one cabinet and it's a Big Baby 3. As you say, it's the optimal intersection of weight, sound quality, and size. Alex's design are brilliant. Likewise, I see 3 Leaf as the optimal intersection of enclosure size and circuit design.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I have a Groove regulator, octabvre and a chromatron. I think they’re great pedals but to be completely honest. If I had to buy them again now based on availability and price I’d probably just look somewhere else.

This new world we live in with wait lists and batch drops has become a thing and you really have to be patient and it has to be special. There is some pro audio stuff that falls in that category for me. Pedals not so much.

 

[Raoul_Duke]

I loved my Chromatron. Like… LOVED it. It was by far my favorite of all the pedals I’ve owned.

There is no way I would pay $700+ for a used one, and I think doing so is kinda stupid. I mean you do you, but that is an insane price for an envelope filter.

Spencer can do whatever he wants, though. I have no critique about his business because it isn’t my business. Dude makes great stuff regardless of how often he does it.

 

[Romain909]

I loved my Chromatron. Like… LOVED it. It was by far my favorite of all the pedals I’ve owned.

There is no way I would pay $700+ for a used one, and I think doing so is kinda stupid. I mean you do you, but that is an insane price for an envelope filter.

Spencer can do whatever he wants, though. I have no critique about his business because it isn’t my business. Dude makes great stuff regardless of how often he does it.

Don’t forget Reverb’s prices are not Spencer’s

 

[Raoul_Duke]

Don’t forget Reverb’s prices are not Spencer’s

Oh absolutely! I have no qualms with the dude or his pedals or his business or any of that. He can churn out one pedal a year for all I care. It’s his life. His stuff is great! I just think the prices for the used stuff is bonkers, and I’ve never met a pedal worth that kind of dough.

 

[Grahams Groove]

I’ve never met a pedal worth that kind of dough

 

[cosmicevan]

I remember getting my chromatron shortly after it came out. I thought it was absurdly expensive back then but when the first Black Friday sales hit after it was released, I am pretty sure I got it at some stupid discount for like 40% off and paid less than $200 new. The only bad thing that come that was selling my groove regulator because I figured I’d never use it again after falling in love w the chromatron. The chromatron is phenomenal make no mistake but the most recent iteration of the proton holds the same magic just a few less options. Chromatron holds the board spot for me though.

 

[cosmicevan]

Broughton's following is largely contained to TalkBass

FWIW - This is not true according to Josh and people in the know.

 

[jdjk7]

Broughton's following is largely contained to TalkBass

FWIW - This is not true according to Josh and people in the know.

I seem to recall from the last time this came up in the Broughton thread that most of Josh's business is his hpf/lpf pedals, and that he's pretty much constantly selling those-- hence, they remain constantly in stock. Just as well... he is becoming pretty well known for those. Such that I think even one of the popular open source pcb websites has a circuit billed as a "Compare to Broughton Audio HP/LPF" or something like that. He's becoming known, just not exactly for the things that keep his Talkbass fanbase coming. Because the average player who finds out about the HP/LPFs from a Youtube video is not gonna be around come drop time, and they're not necessarily gonna become interested unless they really read into some of Josh's product pages.

It's not hard to tell, but Josh is my favorite builder. He just does so many things right in a way that hits deep to me, and I can't help but support him. He just knows how to make a top tier product. Any particular one of his pedals might not be your thing... i.e. some people don't like RATs, some people don't like Muffs, some people don't care for octavers/synth pedals, etc... but out of all his catalog, I'm fairly certain most people would find something that hits them the way it does me. Plus his more original ideas, like the Scorpion*, which has been only getting more popular. (I think the past few months, the times I've heard Broughton talked about outside of TB, it was about the Scorpion.)

*The Scorpion is not an original circuit in the sense that it was based upon the BBBOD, but the EQ and Depth additions really bring the circuit into its own.

 

[labeledbass]

I seem to recall from the last time this came up in the Broughton thread that most of Josh's business is his hpf/lpf pedals, and that he's pretty much constantly selling those-- hence, they remain constantly in stock. Just as well... he is becoming pretty well known for those. Such that I think even one of the popular open source pcb websites has a circuit billed as a "Compare to Broughton Audio HP/LPF" or something like that. He's becoming known, just not exactly for the things that keep his Talkbass fanbase coming. Because the average player who finds out about the HP/LPFs from a Youtube video is not gonna be around come drop time, and they're not necessarily gonna become interested unless they really read into some of Josh's product pages.

It's not hard to tell, but Josh is my favorite builder. He just does so many things right in a way that hits deep to me, and I can't help but support him. He just knows how to make a top tier product. Any particular one of his pedals might not be your thing... i.e. some people don't like RATs, some people don't like Muffs, some people don't care for octavers/synth pedals, etc... but out of all his catalog, I'm fairly certain most people would find something that hits them the way it does me. Plus his more original ideas, like the Scorpion*, which has been only getting more popular. (I think the past few months, the times I've heard Broughton talked about outside of TB, it was about the Scorpion.)

*The Scorpion is not an original circuit in the sense that it was based upon the BBBOD, but the EQ and Depth additions really bring the circuit into its own.

Listens to the end user, works hard at production, literally won't sell his own product if he thinks they will flip for a much higher price, has 47 peices of gear right now, that can/are being produced, tries his hardest to make drops fair for everyone, never really has a complaint (publicly at least) with quality issues, and best of all the majority of the gear is under 250, realistically 200 usd. It's hard not to hold a brand like this up as a gold standard these days, whatever "bizness model" he uses, seems to work.

And I agree, his major niche has always been in the Studio first, Stage second.

Not too relevant to the current convo, just adding to what you said. I've sold over half of my Broughtons, but at least I had the opportunity to try them in the first place. With everything available, it's hard to like them all

 

[Raoul_Duke]

I remember getting my chromatron shortly after it came out. I thought it was absurdly expensive back then but when the first Black Friday sales hit after it was released, I am pretty sure I got it at some stupid discount for like 40% off and paid less than $200 new. The only bad thing that come that was selling my groove regulator because I figured I’d never use it again after falling in love w the chromatron. The chromatron is phenomenal make no mistake but the most recent iteration of the proton holds the same magic just a few less options. Chromatron holds the board spot for me though.

I concur. The Proton V4 did like 80% of what I liked from the Chromatron, and it was crazy easy to dial in. I, too, still preferred the latter, but I’d be super happy with either one.

 

[Grahams Groove]

I concur. The Proton V4 did like 80% of what I liked from the Chromatron, and it was crazy easy to dial in. I, too, still preferred the latter, but I’d be super happy with either one.

I have had pretty much all the 3Leaf filters over the years (minus the Proton V2 I believe). Traded my Chromatron last year and kept the Proton V4. I never used the expression function on the chroma, and the subtle tweaking you get from the big box is frankly not going to move the needle live. If it comes to board space and ease of use, I think the Proton 4 is an easy choice for live use. Studio/recording - the Chromatron has it's advantages, but agreed that they're really close.

 

[Erithon]

FWIW - This is not true according to Josh and people in the know.

I seem to recall from the last time this came up in the Broughton thread that most of Josh's business is his hpf/lpf pedals, and that he's pretty much constantly selling those-- hence, they remain constantly in stock. Just as well... he is becoming pretty well known for those. Such that I think even one of the popular open source pcb websites has a circuit billed as a "Compare to Broughton Audio HP/LPF" or something like that. He's becoming known, just not exactly for the things that keep his Talkbass fanbase coming. Because the average player who finds out about the HP/LPFs from a Youtube video is not gonna be around come drop time, and they're not necessarily gonna become interested unless they really read into some of Josh's product pages.

Y'all make a good point about the Broughton utility pedals. I'm not surprised they are the backbone of Josh's business. He's identified a hole in the market and has worked to fill it. But we are discussing effects pedals, not utility pedals--specifically, we are discussing if the recent Scorpion market change adumbrates changes in the 3 Leaf market. The Broughton HPF/LPF is not relevant because Josh (thankfully) keeps that unit in stock so prices don't soar. I'll refine my earlier statement: when it comes to effect pedals, Broughton is more niche than 3 Leaf Audio. (If things continue as they are, this will not be true in another 5 or 10 years.) All I know is I don't see Broughton out in the wild like I do 3 Leaf, and I think TalkBass gives a very skewed perspective of how popular Broughton really is. I'm not saying that makes one brand better than the other; I'm saying I thought that earlier example of the Scorpion release bringing down Scorpion prices will likely not apply to the Doom 2 or Chromatron.

For what it's worth I have four Broughton pedals and two 3 Leaf pedals on my main board, plus an additional two 3 Leaf pedals on my mini board. (And even more of each brand have passed through my hands.) I like both brands and I think they excel in different areas. For Broughton, that's dirt and utility. For 3 Leaf, it's synth-related effects and especially filters.

 

[jasonbraatz]

At this point the only thing keeping me having an "analog" pedalboard at all is the Chromatron, specifically the envelope effects loop.

If Line 6 ever can get me that "envelope opening into fuzz and octave" thing in the Helix then I'll probably flip everything. The BOctaver already can get really close to the Octabvre (especially being able to assign a footswitch to dry cut) and the fuzzes are pretty good with some tweaking.

 

[Iommian]

Email update was just sent out for Doom 2 release dates. Looks like June 11th (tomorrow).

Plus expected 300 units of each Doom 2s, Octabvres, an Protons for 2023!

 

[Erithon]

And a regular release schedule with different ink colors each time. Very fun!

 

[villegastx]

 

[cosmicevan]

I kinda want a high gain doom 2

 

[cosmicevan]

I have had pretty much all the 3Leaf filters over the years (minus the Proton V2 I believe). Traded my Chromatron last year and kept the Proton V4. I never used the expression function on the chroma, and the subtle tweaking you get from the big box is frankly not going to move the needle live. If it comes to board space and ease of use, I think the Proton 4 is an easy choice for live use. Studio/recording - the Chromatron has it's advantages, but agreed that they're really close.

the expression function never wowed me on any of the versions I tried that had it. I really wanted it to let me toggle between env follower and a wah but the closest I could get required bending down and tweaking settings.