4:3 Polyrhythms in top 40 music

[HaVIC5]

Playing in a top 40 wedding band has recently made me realize that the polyrhythm of 4 against 3 is actually super common in contemporary dance pop. I did a video on how to feel the rhythm and show how its used in four pop songs. It's a lot of fun to get under your fingers, and there's a lot of stuff you can play in and around the shifting pulse.



What other songs other than the ones I mentioned (Till the World Ends, Give me Everything, Raise Your Glass, We Are Who We Are) have it? I hear it a ton everywhere now.

Adam

 

[The Bass Clef]

Cool way to explain it! I can't think of any more 4:3 examples off the top of my head, but this makes me think of another common polyrhythm - 4 over 6 (in 6/8). If you count a 6/8 measure: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and, but you hit on the beats that I bolded here: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and... you end up with 4 dotted 8ths in the time of 6 regular 8ths. And it feels like straight 4/4 over the "round" 6/8 feel. I like use this polyrhythm (and the 4:3 one too) a lot in my improv. Cheers.

 

[smeet]

The bridge section of Maniac (from the movie Flashdance) has a cool 2/3 and 4/3 section. Not exactly contemporary, bu a nice feel anyway.

 

[markjsmithbass]

Playing in a top 40 wedding band has recently made me realize that the polyrhythm of 4 against 3 is actually super common in contemporary dance pop. I did a video on how to feel the rhythm and show how its used in four pop songs. It's a lot of fun to get under your fingers, and there's a lot of stuff you can play in and around the shifting pulse.



What other songs other than the ones I mentioned (Till the World Ends, Give me Everything, Raise Your Glass, We Are Who We Are) have it? I hear it a ton everywhere now.

Adam

Great lesson. Great presentation. Great explanation.

 

[HaVIC5]

Here's another great one! A new song that just came out from Skrillex/Diplo and...Justin Bieber? The bassline is a full 3 4:3 cycles plus one eighth note...I dig it!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Here's another great one! A new song that just came out from Skrillex/Diplo and...Justin Bieber? The bassline is a full 3 4:3 cycles plus one eighth note...I dig it!

Thanks for a very interesting explanation.
Just a question.
I've always clapped/played/tapped with my both hands the "4 against 3" polyrhythm as:
4-beat rhythm - my right hand, and
3-beat rhythm - my left hand.

I've got a little bit confused when I watched your video about it:

 

[BrBss]

Thanks for a very interesting explanation.
Just a question.
I've always clapped/played/tapped with my both hands the "4 against 3" polyrhythm as:
4-beat rhythm - my right hand, and
3-beat rhythm - my left hand.

I've got a little bit confused when I watched your video about it:

The 1's in the video correspond to the bottom row of x's in the picture you posted. The circled numbers correspond to the top row of x's.

 

[Lownote38]

Cool way to explain it! I can't think of any more 4:3 examples off the top of my head, but this makes me think of another common polyrhythm - 4 over 6 (in 6/8). If you count a 6/8 measure: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and, but you hit on the beats that I bolded here: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and... you end up with 4 dotted 8ths in the time of 6 regular 8ths. And it feels like straight 4/4 over the "round" 6/8 feel. I like use this polyrhythm (and the 4:3 one too) a lot in my improv. Cheers.

That's actually the same as 2 over 3.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The 1's in the video correspond to the bottom row of x's in the picture you posted. The circled numbers correspond to the top row of x's.

Thanks.
I was (and still am) confused about that "clash" that I get when playing/tapping/clapping it:

And that rhythmic "clash" clearly tells me about the 4:3 polyrhythm.
I did not hear that aural 4:3 Poly interpretation in Adam's video; therefore, I was confused.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That's actually the same as 2 over 3.

Could the following bass-line be interpreted as "4 over 3"?

 

[Lownote38]

Could the following bass-line be interpreted as "4 over 3"?
View attachment 674409

That's 5 over 4

 

[Lownote38]

Thanks.
I was (and still am) confused about that "clash" that I get when playing/tapping/clapping it:
View attachment 674407
And that rhythmic "clash" clearly tells me about the 4:3 polyrhythm.
I did not hear that aural 4:3 Poly interpretation in Adam's video; therefore, I was confused.

say "pass the dog gone butter" and use your left hand tapping on something for the 4 and your right hand tapping on something for 3. You tap both hands at the same time only on the 1st hit, and then alternate hands for the rest of it. The rhythm results in a cadence that goes along with "pass the dog gone butter".

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That's 5 over 4

Could you please elaborate it - I'm more confused.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

say "pass the dog gone butter" and use your left hand tapping on something for the 4 and your right hand tapping on something for 3. You tap both hands at the same time only on the 1st hit, and then alternate hands for the rest of it. The rhythm results in a cadence that goes along with "pass the dog gone butter".

Thank you for your response.

Maybe I really misunderstand the WHOLE concept of Polyrhythm.
Polyrhythm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Polyrhythm is the simultaneous use of two or more conflicting rhythms, that are not readily perceived as deriving from one another, or as simple manifestations of the same meter.[2] The rhythmic conflict may be the basis of an entire piece of music (Invalid Link Removed), or a momentary disruption.

Now, if I tap left/right hand or my foot on "4, something else on 3, and both hands on the 1st"
where is that CONFLICTING rhythm?

I'm just simple tapping/clapping/playing the same 4/4 and accentuating the different Beats of the same 4/4. It gives a 3/4 "feel" but...
Am I wrong?

 

[The Bass Clef]

Could the following bass-line be interpreted as "4 over 3"?
View attachment 674409

The music that's over the first 3 out of the 4 quarter note beats of each measure would be 4 over 3, yes.

 

[HaVIC5]

Okay, lets clarify some things.

First, a good way of thinking about polyrhythms is that the second number in the ratio is the "unit pulse," or what your body is actually feeling. This would be the "1's" from the pen and paper method that I described in the video. This pulse would be what your foot taps to, and what your head nods to. The first number is "calculated" against the second number, and the represents the rhythm you actually play on your instrument.

Measure 1 in the above example shows a way of understanding 4:3. The bottom stave has 4, evenly spaced notes that take the span of 3 quarter notes. Measure 2 on the other hand, shows what 3:4 would look like. The pulse that you feel is the quarter notes, and the cross rhythm that you play is the 3 evenly spaced notes (felt in triplets). Measures 3 and 4 are other ways of writing the same exact same rhythms show in measures 1 and 2

With me so far? Good, because now I'm going to confuse you. Notice the metronome markers in the above graphic. If you had two bass players performing these rhythms exactly as notated and with the exact metronome markings, all 4 measures would sound EXACTLY the same. What's changing is the unit pulse (what your body feels), but 4:3 can be flipped to sound like 3:4 and vice versa via something called metric modulation. Don't believe me? Try inputting this into a notation software like Sibelius and hear what comes out.

To get an idea of what this sort of shifting of meters and polyrhythms sounds like in context, check out an excerpt from the second movement of my large ensemble opus, Exigence.

 

[HaVIC5]

Going back to the video and the 4:3 polyrhythm in music, remember that I said that the second number represents the unit pulse, or what you're body is actually feeling. Hmm...it's 3...it seems like most pop music is in 4/4. What actually happens with the 4:3 polyrhythm in most contexts is that it goes OVER the barline in cycles, as shown in the graphic above. It doesn't neatly fit into 2 bars of 4/4, so very often the last cycle is cleaved off so it can start again.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Thank you, Adam for explaining to me about those Polyrhythms.
Just the last thing that sparked my interest.
Let's use your example.
My question is this.
If you have a (any) polyrhythm, you will have conflicting/clashing claps/taps/beats (or whatever...)
I've highlighted those rhythmically clashing spots.
That's what I've learned from my younger years from a very good drummer/friend who was obsessed with Billy Cobham's polyrhythms.

And here is your simple drawing that sparked my question:
(I just could not hear ANY conflicting rhythms from your explanation.)

Please show me where I could find those "conflicting" rhythms from your sketch.

Now, if I tap left/right hand or my foot on "4, something else on 3, and both hands on the 1st"
where is that CONFLICTING rhythm?
View attachment 675073
I'm just simple tapping/clapping/playing the same 4/4 and accentuating the different Beats of the same 4/4. It gives a 3/4 "feel" but...
Am I wrong?

 

[CGremlin]

For me, the easiest way to explain it is that we all know what triplets are, and the concepts here are the logical extension of them. Very cool post Adam, and great videos too.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

For me, the easiest way to explain it is that we all know what triplets are, and the concepts here are the logical extension of them. Very cool post Adam, and great videos too.

Just a question.
If we take Adam's drawing and his clapping:

and write as a normal notation is it going to be a polyrhythm 4 over 3?

One more (comedic) question.
If we make all Adam's notes in the following snapshot tied, how could we HEAR that polyrhythm?