4:3 Polyrhythms in top 40 music

[Spin Doctor]

First example: I can't tell what you are asking. You just highlighted some quarter notes...

Second Example: You can't tie ALL the notes together and hear a polyrhythm. You would just hold all of the notes throughout the associated measure.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

First example: I can't tell what you are asking. You just highlighted some quarter notes...

Thanks for your response.
What I meant was this.
I took Adam's drawing from his tutorial video and converted to a simple notation:

"Count loudly 1 2 3 4,
and for all of the One's - tap with the right hand, for all of the circled numbers - tap with the left hand."
Here is Adam's converted version (claps with left/right hand):

L.H.=1=R.H. 4 L.H. 3 L.H. 2L.H.

Here is how I thought about POLYRHYTHMS.
"Polyrhythm is the simultaneous use of two or more conflicting rhythms, that are not readily perceived as deriving from one another, or as simple manifestations of the same meter."
Polyrhythm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is that 4 over 3 visual representation:
(My arrows show the conflicting claps/taps/rhythms.)

I could not hear any conflicting rhythms in Adam's video.
Adam clapped on the same beats in 4/4 but with a "3/4 feel" accent.
He was accentuating different beats of the same 4/4.
I'm confused.

 

[markjsmithbass]

If you watch the video again you'll notice he says that he's circling "numbers". That's the key thing here. The 4:3 polyrhythm he plays is 4 notes in the space of 3 quarters. That's how we perceive it but to break the rhythm down and count it we have to go down to the 16th note level which is where the numbers come into play. The numbers he writes are 16th notes.

All polyrhythms can be broken down to a common subdivision. The first number is the key to working that out. When we have 4 in the space of something else then the common subdivision will be a 4 subdivision of some kind. That could be 1/4 notes, 8th notes, 16ths, 32nds etc. If it was 3:2 then we use 3 as our common subdivision so we'll be using triplets of some kind (8th, 16th, 32nd etc.). If it was 5:4 then we would use quintuplets as our subdivision. And so on.

To figure out what level of subdivision just look at the type of rhythm we are dividing. 4:3 quarter notes would mean we divide a quarter note up into 4 (the first number of the ratio). If it was 4:3 eighth notes then we divide the 8th note up into 4 giving us 32nd notes as out subdivision.

The second number gives us the key to how many of that subdivision should be used. That's why Adam uses numbers. In 4:3 quarter notes he uses 16th notes as the common subdivision and circles every 3rd one.

When you mention conflicting rhythms, that doesn't have to mean triplets vs binary vs quintuplets vs septuplets (even though they are also polyrhythms). When we hear 4:3 like Adam plays we perceive 4 notes moving at a different tempo to the 3 it works over. That can happen at any level of rhythmic base. You can have 4:3 spread over many bars if you want, you just don't perceive the polyrhythm at the same speed so it's less impacting.

When you have 4 quarter notes in the way you outlined we have a polymeter. That's a different type of polyrhythm operating at the same perceived tempo. That's not what Adam is describing.

Mark

 

[Clef_de_fa]

If you watch the video again you'll notice he says that he's circling "numbers". That's the key thing here. The 4:3 polyrhythm he plays is 4 notes in the space of 3 quarters. That's how we perceive it but to break the rhythm down and count it we have to go down to the 16th note level which is where the numbers come into play. The numbers he writes are 16th notes.

All polyrhythms can be broken down to a common subdivision. The first number is the key to working that out. When we have 4 in the space of something else then the common subdivision will be a 4 subdivision of some kind. That could be 1/4 notes, 8th notes, 16ths, 32nds etc. If it was 3:2 then we use 3 as our common subdivision so we'll be using triplets of some kind (8th, 16th, 32nd etc.). If it was 5:4 then we would use quintuplets as our subdivision. And so on.

To figure out what level of subdivision just look at the type of rhythm we are dividing. 4:3 quarter notes would mean we divide a quarter note up into 4 (the first number of the ratio). If it was 4:3 eighth notes then we divide the 8th note up into 4 giving us 32nd notes as out subdivision.

The second number gives us the key to how many of that subdivision should be used. That's why Adam uses numbers. In 4:3 quarter notes he uses 16th notes as the common subdivision and circles every 3rd one.

When you mention conflicting rhythms, that doesn't have to mean triplets vs binary vs quintuplets vs septuplets (even though they are also polyrhythms). When we hear 4:3 like Adam plays we perceive 4 notes moving at a different tempo to the 3 it works over. That can happen at any level of rhythmic base. You can have 4:3 spread over many bars if you want, you just don't perceive the polyrhythm at the same speed so it's less impacting.

When you have 4 quarter notes in the way you outlined we have a polymeter. That's a different type of polyrhythm operating at the same perceived tempo. That's not what Adam is describing.

Mark

I started to feel like I didn,t understood the right thing many year ago at shcool. Finally a post that is clear.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The numbers he writes are 16th notes.

Mark,

Thank you for your response.
As always, you bring so much knowledge and information to TB.

Your one sentence,
"Adam writes and circles the 16th notes, not the regular four beats in 4/4, has immediately resolved all my confusion.

In the video around 0:30, while explaining about 4:3 polyrhythms,
Adam says,
"You're gonna be playing four evenly spaced notes within a span of 3 evenly spaced notes."

And next, Adam starts drawing those four (4) evenly spaced notes, and of course, due to my amateur knowledge, I've assumed that those four (4) evenly spaced notes are the same 4 beats from 4/4.

(Since "4 over 3" = 1 bar/measure of four even beats from 4/4 over 1 bar/measure of three even beats from 3/4.)

No more questions. Thank you for your help.
That's how you know that you are dealing with a true Teacher.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I started to feel like I didn,t understood the right thing many year ago at shcool. Finally a post that is clear.

Please check this "Polyrhythm Beat Generator."
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[Clef_de_fa]

Please check this "Polyrhythm Beat Generator."
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interesting but it can become a mess in no time.

I see that I did have a hard time understanding the polyrythm talked this thread because I feel like two terms were misused a lot : Polyrythm and Polymeter.

Polyrythm is just a more complex term to describe a triplet-quadruplet-quintuplet that touch the whole bar.
Polymeter is more interesting to me because you could have a riff that last five 8th note over a beat in 4/4

 

[The Bass Clef]

Polymeter is more interesting to me because you could have a riff that last five 8th note over a beat in 4/4

I think they just call that "noise".

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I think they just call that "noise".

Not really, few modern exemple are any songs by Meshugga. The song Nightmare of Rondo by Babymetal.

I'm thinking out loud here but it kinda remind me of a "4 voices sing around"

 

[The Bass Clef]

Not really, few modern exemple are any songs by Meshugga. The song Nightmare of Rondo by Babymetal.

I'm thinking out loud here but it kinda remind me of a "4 voices sing around"

Ya, just joking. I know there is some really cool polyrhythmic (and polymetric) ethnic music around the world too.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Ya, just joking. I know there is some really cool polyrhythmic (and polymetric) ethnic music around the world too.

thebrian,

You have helped me a lot in some "other" thread, maybe you could clarify some "cloudy" spots about that Polyrhythm.

In one of his postings, Adam said the following:

"Measure 1 in the above example shows a way of understanding 4:3. The bottom stave has 4, evenly spaced notes that take the span of 3 quarter notes. Measure 2 on the other hand, shows what 3:4 would look like."

Both measures aurally sound the same to me.
I always though that 4 over 3 (4:3) meant this:
The top layer has 4 evenly spaced notes/beats/claps, the bottom stave has 3 evenly spaced notes.

Could you help me to figure out what Adam said about that difference between 4:3 and 3:4?

Some links about polyrhythms.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Introduction to Polyrhythms - Tuts+ Music & Audio Article
http://f.unkster.tripod.com/polyrhythm.html
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[The Bass Clef]

thebrian,

You have helped me a lot in some "other" thread, maybe you could clarify some "cloudy" spots about that Polyrhythm.

In one of his postings, Adam said the following:

"Measure 1 in the above example shows a way of understanding 4:3. The bottom stave has 4, evenly spaced notes that take the span of 3 quarter notes. Measure 2 on the other hand, shows what 3:4 would look like."


View attachment 678663

Both measures aurally sound the same to me.
I always though that 4 over 3 (4:3) meant this:
The top layer has 4 evenly spaced notes/beats/claps, the bottom stave has 3 evenly spaced notes.
View attachment 678669
View attachment 678670

View attachment 678677

Could you help me to figure out what Adam said about that difference between 4:3 and 3:4?

Some links about polyrhythms.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Introduction to Polyrhythms - Tuts+ Music & Audio Article
http://f.unkster.tripod.com/polyrhythm.html
Invalid Link Removed
Link Removed
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I think maybe it would be easier for you to see if you just flip the staves of the the first measure. So in other words, put all of the normal quarter notes in both measures on the bottom stave. Then you would have 4 evenly spaced notes literally "over" 3 evenly spaced notes in the 1st measure. And 3 evenly spaced notes literally "over" 4 evenly spaced notes in the 2nd measure.

And if you go back to Adam's full example, also flip the staves of the 3rd measure I think that might make it all easier to see because then all of the simple quarter note beats for all 4 measures would be on the bottom stave, and all of the actual polyrythms (the 1st # in the #:#) will be on the top stave.

Also, note that the reason why all 4 measures sound exactly the same aurally in this example, is only because of the tempo changes between each measure.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I think maybe it would be easier for you to see if you just flip the staves of the the first measure. So in other words, put all of the normal quarter notes in both measures on the bottom stave. Then you would have 4 evenly spaced notes literally "over" 3 evenly spaced notes in the 1st measure. And 3 evenly spaced notes literally "over" 4 evenly spaced notes in the 2nd measure.

And if you go back to Adam's full example, also flip the staves of the 3rd measure I think that might make it all easier to see because then all of the simple quarter note beats for all 4 measures would be on the bottom stave, and all of the actual polyrythms (the 1st # in the #:#) will be on the top stave.

Also, note that the reason why all 4 measures sound exactly the same aurally in this example, is only because of the tempo changes between each measure.

Thank you for your response.

Let's not flip anything because Adam did not.
(I'm trying to be consistent.)
I know it's ONLY me because the whole world understood Adam's explanation.

(What's strange, I've played a lot of compositions with polyrhythms/cross rhythms. I've wrote some light patterns with polymeter, and I've never had any issues with notating it until now.)

Let me paraphrase my question.
Does the expression "4 over 3" (4:3) or 3 over 4 (3:4) depends on the time signature?
That's how I see the difference in Adam's posting. The first measure is in 3/4. The second measure is in 4/4.
Adam wrote,
"Measure 1 in the above example shows a way of understanding 4:3."
"Measure 2 on the other hand, shows what 3:4 would look like."


Am I correct? If so, NO MORE QUESTIONS.
The case is closed.

BUT...
The following explanation completely destroys my understanding:

Here is more.
5 over 4 (5:4). As you can see, 5 notes on top and 4 notes on the bottom.

And what's more, as Mark mentioned in his excellent posting,
"I does not matter on ANY subdivision"

But...
The next source of information confused me even more - there is no time signature:

What Is A Polyrhythm - Advanced Drum Lessons

"Each polyrhythm is named after a formula that lets you know exactly how the different rhythms relate to each other. The formula is the following: X-over-Y or X:Y. X is called the counter rhythm and Y is called the basic pulse.
Use Y as the number of counts over which you'll play the polyrhythm, before its various rhythms line up on the following count 1. Since on a 3-over-4 polyrhythm Y is 4, the polyrhythm will have to be played over four counts.
The X tells us exactly in how many notes we'll have to subdivide each count to play the counter rhythm. Because X is 3 in a 3-over-4 polyrhythm, each count will be subdivided into three notes, that is, into 8th note triplets."

"If you used Y to set the number of bars, X will define the number of counts per bar and the number of notes you'll subdivide each count with, to play the counter rhythm. Since X is 3, each bar has three counts that are subdivided into 8th note triplets. This means we'll have four bars of 3/4 odd-time."

Anyway, I know it's just me that cannot get that very simple thing. It's my mental block and one day it will become very clear to me.

I've watched the following video and it, kind of helped me to understand about the polyrhythm notation.

Polyrhythm in Taylor Swift's 22
Polyrhythm in Taylor Swift's 22 - Pop Music Theory

 

[Febs]

Let's not flip anything because Adam did not.
(I'm trying to be consistent.)

Notice the metronome markers in the above graphic. If you had two bass players performing these rhythms exactly as notated and with the exact metronome markings, all 4 measures would sound EXACTLY the same. What's changing is the unit pulse (what your body feels), but 4:3 can be flipped to sound like 3:4 and vice versa via something called metric modulation. Don't believe me? Try inputting this into a notation software like Sibelius and hear what comes out.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Should I understand that "it's all about that FEEL, and it has nothing to do with music theory".
If so, I'm doomed.

Here is another web-site about 3:4 and 4:3.
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[Whousedtoplay]

(A note for myself)
Here is a visual definition of the following expression, "To stare like a cow a the new gate:"
(Multi-layered polyrhythms.)

 

[The Bass Clef]

Thank you for your response.

Let's not flip anything because Adam did not.
(I'm trying to be consistent.)
I know it's ONLY me because the whole world understood Adam's explanation.

I only suggested flipping it over to make it easier for you to see what's going on.. because then all of the regular quarter notes on the beats would all be on the bottom stave, and all the polyrhythms would be on the top stave - "over" the normal beat. That is actually more consistent to visualize IMO.

(What's strange, I've played a lot of compositions with polyrhythms/cross rhythms. I've wrote some light patterns with polymeter, and I've never had any issues with notating it until now.)

Let me paraphrase my question.
Does the expression "4 over 3" (4:3) or 3 over 4 (3:4) depends on the time signature?
That's how I see the difference in Adam's posting. The first measure is in 3/4. The second measure is in 4/4.
Adam wrote,
"Measure 1 in the above example shows a way of understanding 4:3."
"Measure 2 on the other hand, shows what 3:4 would look like."


Am I correct? If so, NO MORE QUESTIONS.
The case is closed.

Yes it depends on the time signature (in that particular example), but polyrhythms can also be done on a beat by beat basis too. You are thinking about this too hard. If you can play triplets, then you are already able to play a polyrhythm. A triplet is 3 evenly spaced notes in the time of 2 evenly spaced notes.. aka. 3:2. All the other polyrhythms are still the same concept as this.

If the formula for a polyrhythm is X:Y, then X is the polyrhythm that you are playing "over" a certain number of normal beats. And Y is the number of normal beats - which could be the time signature of it's taking up the entire measure (like the particular example of Adam's that we are tallking about). But it could be just over a single beat in a measure. For instance in a measure of 4/4, if you have (6) 8th notes and then an 8th note triplet, the polyrhythm (3:2) would only be on the very last beat of the measure (1 & 2 & 3 & tri-pl-et).

Now let's do a different polyrhythm in this same measure of 4/4... imagine (12) 16th notes and then 5:4 polyrhythm on just the last beat (1e&a 2e&a 3e&a xxxxx). You're literally cramming 5 evenly spaced notes into the space of "4e&a".. just like you crammed 3 notes into the space of 2 in my example in the paragraph above. Hope this helps shed some light on it for you.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Hope this helps shed some light on it for you.

Thanks for your help.
My brain cell activity is up on that subject but still no champagne.

From a very good Peter Magadini's book, "Musicians guide to polyrhythms"
(One problem - everything is ... over 4 (...:4).

Everything is CLEAR until I get to this:
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3 over 4 (3:4) example.

Please note that the time signature and the top/bottom notes are identical to Adam's notes, but...
Adam calls it 4:3.

I'm really jealous that so many TB members that could EASILY comprehend those "elusive-to-me" 4 over 3 and 3 over 4 differences.

P.S. I just hope that at least ONE TB member is going over my posted snapshots.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Thanks for your help.
My brain cell activity is up on that subject but still no champagne.

From a very good Peter Magadini's book, "Musicians guide to polyrhythms"
(One problem - everything is ... over 4 (...:4).
View attachment 679038
View attachment 679043
Everything is CLEAR until I get to this:
Link Removed

3 over 4 (3:4) example.
View attachment 679053
Please note that the time signature and the top/bottom notes are identical to Adam's notes, but...
Adam calls it 4:3.
View attachment 679055

I'm really jealous that so many TB members that could EASILY comprehend those "elusive-to-me" 4 over 3 and 3 over 4 differences.

P.S. I just hope that at least ONE TB member is going over my posted snapshots.

You think too much. You know how to write a triplet of quater note ??? Then you have polyrythm for those two beat. It is very simple.
You could put 4 quater note in a 3/4 bar ...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

You think too much. You know how to write a triplet of quater note ??? Then you have polyrythm for those two beat. It is very simple.
You could put 4 quater note in a 3/4 bar ...

Clef, I'm jealous. You have already reached your destination. My "polyrhythm" train has been delayed.

This morning, I followed your advice and played a simple pattern where I changed the quarter notes into triplets that included accented and ghost notes.
It was the 3 over 2 or 6 over 4 polyrhythm.

http://cdn1.talkbass.com/data/attachment-files/2015/08/2580740_cc69422b6ce4d84201c07d7d34ef9d6f.mp3

Something like this with a few dynamic variations.

Now, I'm trying to figure out how to play the 2 over 3 polyrhythm.
What should I play differently?