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400W not loud enough

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brotherdoc

Oct 26, 2008
79
1
#1
I have a Hartke HA4000 w/ a VX410 cab. Wednesday night when my band played (3pc. w/ vocals) I had to turn up my amp so high (3/4) that it started clipping. So I backed her down a little and limped through the night. I realize that w/ one cab, my amp is only putting out 220W, so I borrow a 1x15 Hartke Transporter cab for last night figuring that it'd do the trick. It did, but just barely. According to the volume know, I was just under the same level as Wednesday night. Right under 3/4. Seems like it was just a little louder, but still not comfortably loud enough. I'm afraid that if we play somewhere bigger, that my rig will be inadequate.

My friend (and guitarist from one of my old bands) was there and he said I carried through the place well. I dunno, but at 15 ft. off the stage, it sounded horrible to me. Think phasing could have been an issue? I had a front port cab and a rear port cab stacked up.

Should I really look at upgrading my amp already? Or would another 4x10 cab push more air, giving me enough perceived volume?
 
#2
I'd say: buy some dencent cab or try to set EQ ldifferent.
VX's are one of the worst cabs I've heard. 400W CAN'T be not loud enough. It's just impossible, I play 3pc + voc band with extreme loud drummer with rock Tama set ( when he play's I can't stand the noise while standing in front of the building where we play! on play I use earloves, -20db of the signal.. and he' stil way too loud ) and I have 220W Ampeg B200R ( one 15 inch speaker ) - on gigs I set it quiter than on rehearsal...
 
#3
I also have the HA4000 but mine is running through a 4ohm 4200 pro cab (410)

I think the issue is the amp. I've had the same trouble with the clip light flashing at about half volume and I could barely hear myself over the drummer. I've done some checking and the clip light comes on at that point no matter what cab I have and even with no cab. I have played with the clip light solid with no trouble. I honestly suspect the clip light is set to be too sensitive. The manual says it lights when the "output rises to an unacceptably high distortion level". I'm guessing this is different than actually overloading the amp.

Before this I had a traditional Hartke head pushing 250W and it was just as loud. The HA4000 sounds much better though. I think having the single volume pre everything (even pre-out) was a mistake though.

It is my experience that 400W through a single 4ohm cab will sound louder than through two 8ohm cabs, but that might depend on the amp/ cab combo.
 
#4
Have you just gotten the amp or is this a new development/problem with volume?

400w 'should' be enough.

Cab sensitivity 'may' be an issue.

Clip lights are a guide, I'd trust my ears every time.

Front porting + rear porting will have no affect on phasing and generally you'd not be able to tell if a cab was one or the other.

When you added the 2nd cab you 'could' have had a phasing issue 'if' the speaker leads used were wired out of phase with each other... unlikely. If they were out of phase then adding the 2nd cab may well have resulted in the sound being worse than with one cab.

"It is my experience that 400W through a single 4ohm cab will sound louder than through two 8ohm cabs, but that might depend on the amp/ cab combo." - With all due respect that is pretty much nonsense. Setting aside the fact that you aren't giving any stats for sensitivity of the two comparisons etc and assuming you are NOT talking about the single cab being an 8x10 when the two cabs are say 2x10; then x2 8ohm cabs will mean that the amp is putting out the same output as x1 4 ohm cab. However, having 2 cabs would generally mean that you have more speaker surface area and if the speakers are stacked then the sound source will be closer to ear height.

I'd suggest seeing if anyone local has equipment that you can trial; use your amp with their cabs and/or your cabs with their amp. I'd also suggest placing your equipment near (about 12" - 48" from a boundary wall of the room or better still angled out from a corner (similar distances).

Good luck.
 
#6
That was based on trying 2 4-10, 8ohm Nemesis cabs and my 410 4200 4ohm cab at a rehearsal. No statistics, just that we all agreed that with this head and the 4ohm cab the bass sounded louder and I could turn the level down. Again, it might just be the cab tuning and space so take warwickhunt's advice and test some gear. Everything sounds good in the store so try it at practice if possible.

I still think it's the amp since I have the same experience with low level
 
#10
I'm not familiar with your rig but something else to keep in mind is how easy it is for some guitarist amps with boosted bass knobs to be stepping all over your frequency range making your current rig seem very inadequate. You might take a quick peak at his bass knob and try centering it (or less) if he's got it cranked up...
 
#11
+1 to anderbass' comment. If the guitarist insists on playing bass parts, you can leave and go to a band where there's sonic room for a bassist.

Wattage has very little to do with loudness. Loudness is determined by cabinet efficiency, which varies greatly among brands/models. And most cabs will begin to fart out long before you reach their wattage rating, which makes wattage worth even less important.

-1 to SedanDad's comment, because it appears to have nothing to do with the OP except a wattage number. Comparing wattage numbers with no other information is like comparing my car's gas mileage to another vehicle...but I didn't mention that the other vehicle is a Hummer.
 
#12
brotherdoc said:
I have a Hartke HA4000 w/ a VX410 cab. Wednesday night when my band played (3pc. w/ vocals) I had to turn up my amp so high (3/4) that it started clipping. So I backed her down a little and limped through the night. I realize that w/ one cab, my amp is only putting out 220W, so I borrow a 1x15 Hartke Transporter cab for last night figuring that it'd do the trick. It did, but just barely. According to the volume know, I was just under the same level as Wednesday night. Right under 3/4. Seems like it was just a little louder, but still not comfortably loud enough. I'm afraid that if we play somewhere bigger, that my rig will be inadequate.

My friend (and guitarist from one of my old bands) was there and he said I carried through the place well. I dunno, but at 15 ft. off the stage, it sounded horrible to me. Think phasing could have been an issue? I had a front port cab and a rear port cab stacked up.

Should I really look at upgrading my amp already? Or would another 4x10 cab push more air, giving me enough perceived volume?
Click to expand...

400w is more than enough.you must be doing something wrong to have volume troubles.i play a 500w hartke rig(vx4x10,1x15)and have no trouble getting heard.i don't go past 2 on the volume knob.
you might have to look at your eq and room acoustics to find the answer you want.:hmm:
 
#13
Another +1 to anderbass' comment. When I asked our guitarist to turn down his bass recently, it was amazing how much "louder" my bass amp became. The rest of the band was pretty shocked as well, including the guitarist.

I'm a guitarist as well and pointed out to him that its easy for us to "represent" the entire band when we're practicing by ourselves, but necessary to only represent the guitar when playing in a group format. That also goes for all the ridiculous amount of fills we tend to play on guitar when we're on our own...
 
#15
Not a boast here at all, but I play a GK 800rb, 300 watts at 4ohms. I am using a NEO 412 now but even with a 8 ohm 215 Ampeg cab (loaded with 421a Altecs amp putting out 200 watts) I never have gone past noon on the master? That is up against two guitars, loud drummer and no PA support.
Two 8 ohm cabs should always be louder than one 4 ohm cab unless the two 8 ohm cabs have less driver cone area ( two 115's have less cone area than one 410).
 
#16
Beej said:
I'm a guitarist as well and pointed out to him that its easy for us to "represent" the entire band when we're practicing by ourselves, but necessary to only represent the guitar when playing in a group format. That also goes for all the ridiculous amount of fills we tend to play on guitar when we're on our own...
Click to expand...

That's a very good way to put it.
 
#18
B-string said:
Not a boast here at all, but I play a GK 800rb, 300 watts at 4ohms. I am using a NEO 412 now but even with a 8 ohm 215 Ampeg cab (loaded with 421a Altecs amp putting out 200 watts) I never have gone past noon on the master? That is up against two guitars, loud drummer and no PA support.
Two 8 ohm cabs should always be louder than one 4 ohm cab unless the two 8 ohm cabs have less driver cone area ( two 115's have less cone area than one 410).
Click to expand...

Not to boast but here at all, but two 115's have 12.5% more cone area than one 410 ;)
 
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