The reason for more output is more turns, the current/voltage induced is determined by the number of coils, the magnetic field strength and the speed at which the magnetic field changes.
At least, that's if pickups obey Faraday's law
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41-44 AWG: Who cares?
- Thread starter thiocyclist
- Start date
The reason for more output is more turns, the current/voltage induced is determined by the number of coils, the magnetic field strength and the speed at which the magnetic field changes.
At least, that's if pickups obey Faraday's law
The reason you are getting confusing answers is because predicting the final sound of a pickup is a complex problem. In any one basic pickup configuration, there are probably 20 design factors that are tightly interconnected. That is, when you change one factor, it changes some (but not all) of the others to varying degrees.
There isn't any single answer to the question "If I change the wire gauge from 42ga to 44ga, how does it change the sound?" There are multiple answers going in opposite directions. It depends on what the other factors are.
I'm the guy that made the quote above, over on the other forum. So you understand, I didn't mean that wire gauge makes no difference in the sound. What I meant was that I decided on the wire gauge first (because I found a bunch of it for cheap!) and then I adjusted the other design factors to get the sound that I wanted. In particular, I played with the number of turns, the height of the coil, and the density of the layering.
My point was that you can approach pickup design from different angles: Start by fixing several factors, and then adjust the others to tune it. But the factors are all connected, and the direction that the sound changes will vary.
Like I said, there isn't any single easy answer to your question. And taking a poll of a thousand people (most of whom have never actually made a pickup) is going to make you even more confused.
This question is really very similar to the "tone woods" arguments that constantly rage on here at TB. When you take a complex problem and try to pull out one factor, and then try to absolutely define what happens when you change that one factor, you get..........swirling confusion and flying beer bottles. Don't expect a simple answer to a complex problem. You aren't going to find it.
Designing and building a bass, and predicting how it's going to sound, is much more complicated than most of you may realize. I spent a long career as real R & D engineer, designing all kinds of machines. I got into building basses as a semi-retirement business because it's a tremendous technical challenge. It really is complicated (and fun!) to try to figure out.
Let's hold these constant: bobbin architecture, coil height, number of turns, how it is wound/density, magnets, wiring harness, strings, bass, you name it. Pretend it's a Jazz Bass neck pickup if that helps. Now. Change the magnet wire from 42 to 44 AWG. What happens? Isn't that an answerable question?
Hopkins
Commercial User
When I wind pickups I aim for x amount of resistance because I'm too lame to make a turn counter. It's kind of a PITA, but it works.
"Real" pickup winders have counters, and they keep records of how many winds are on a particular pickup. When winding they go for the number of winds...it retains a degree of consistancy. They are also "aiming" for resistance in a way, but they have a specified number of winds which will put them there.
Another advantage of using a turn counter is it eliminates room temperature as a factor. The same pickup will give higher DCR readings when it's warm. I measured one which spent a few hours in a hot mailbox, and a it was almost 1.5k less the next day, after cooling off. That's a little extreme, but it was a 10.5+k coil when cool, and 12+k fresh from the mailbox.
That "sucking up some of the high end" can also translate into a muffled/muddy/inarticulate sound.
I experimented with 43 on JB pickups for a while, and concluded it was a waste of time. But I was just rewinding normal J pickups with alnico rods.
Often the hotter pickups with thinner wire use ceramic magnets for brightness.
I experimented with 43 on JB pickups for a while, and concluded it was a waste of time. But I was just rewinding normal J pickups with alnico rods.
Often the hotter pickups with thinner wire use ceramic magnets for brightness.
Hopkins
Commercial User
My winder has a counter, but its to slow and freezes up if I turn up my winder to much. So until I get a new counter I'm turning to a resistance. It takes forever if I go slow enough to use the counter.
Some pickups have reference holes in the flat part of the bobbins. The person at the winding machine winds until the coil is thick enough to reach the hole, then stops. Close enough for rock 'n roll.
this is a good, answerable question!
my understanding (as a guitar fixer, but not a pickup builder) is that the result of skinnier wire and the same number of turns would primarily be a pickup with a physically narrower coil, but with higher resistance.
the narrower coil changes the aperture, the "window" of string that the pickup senses, while the higher resistance (i think) is where the high end loss comes from.
thicker insulation could totally change this too, where you could get a physically fatter coil of the same turns of thinner wire, while the increased distance between wraps would decrease the capacitance loss between wraps.
i think of this stuff like recipes for wine or chili, only a few ingredients but endlessly different results based on the proportions. (we haven't even broached the subject of the pattern or the tightness of the wire wraps!)
I'm using a sewing machine and a cheap analog multimeter.I guess number of turns by,ohms pr foot and the distance around the bobbin.
If everything else is the same,smaller wire will be similar to that of an under wound coil of larger wire but the smaller wire will have less highs and less lows.
capacitance + resistance to ground = high pass filter
inductance + resistance to ground = low pass filter
high pass filter + low pass filter in series = band pass filter
high pass filter + low pass filter parallel = notch filter
A pickup is like a high pass filter and a low pass filter in both series and parallel ,being powered by a generator.
The end result is
Who cares.
__________________
damn kids and their wires
The end result is
Surely you understand I titled this thread to get attention, not in some vain attempt to say wire gauge doesn't matter.
I am 100% novice in the area, I have been given a choice about wire gauge and am trying to make an informed decision.
I really don't appreciate the whole enigmatic sarcasm routine.
as I understand it, based on the research I have done - particularly on the music electronics forum that has already been linked...
there are a lot of factors that have an impact on the tone of a pickup, even the type of coating used - formvar, light or heavy build up enamel, and poly.
A thinner gauge of wire has more DC resistance but also allows for more windings. As I understand it more DC resistance translates to a stringer low end, but because of the increased DC resistance and how it interacts with winding capacitance you could expect a little high frequency roll-off.
More turns also means higher inductance. The type of magnet also impacts inductance regardless of number of turns.
More turns also increases winding capacitance. This is also where type or thickness of coating probably has an effect.
Winding technique and method has an impact as well. Gets into how much and consistent the amount of tension is applied while winding. I have also heard that potting effects tone.
Also to be considered is where the mid-bump is that does so much to characterize pickups. Each of these factors (and probably others I have yet to discover) effect the magnitude and frequency of the mid frequency resonance.
My $0.02. I certainly don't have all the answers and I may not have a complete grasp.
there are a lot of factors that have an impact on the tone of a pickup, even the type of coating used - formvar, light or heavy build up enamel, and poly.
A thinner gauge of wire has more DC resistance but also allows for more windings. As I understand it more DC resistance translates to a stringer low end, but because of the increased DC resistance and how it interacts with winding capacitance you could expect a little high frequency roll-off.
More turns also means higher inductance. The type of magnet also impacts inductance regardless of number of turns.
More turns also increases winding capacitance. This is also where type or thickness of coating probably has an effect.
Winding technique and method has an impact as well. Gets into how much and consistent the amount of tension is applied while winding. I have also heard that potting effects tone.
Also to be considered is where the mid-bump is that does so much to characterize pickups. Each of these factors (and probably others I have yet to discover) effect the magnitude and frequency of the mid frequency resonance.
My $0.02. I certainly don't have all the answers and I may not have a complete grasp.
It's starting to feel that way. I just want to know if you could hold everything else equal what would change. I can't tell if it's too hard to say concisely or if certain posters are just sort of talking "around" the question out of sheer annoyance at my OP.
For those who are actually trying to answer the question, I really appreciate it.
Given a pickup with all things equal except the wire gauge, here is what I would expect based on my research:
Thinner gauge wire would produce a stronger low end. Thicker gauge wire would have a more high frequency presence. I have read descriptions of pickups with thicker gauge wire as having "singing highs".
Okay. I appreciate your thoughts. I think in general with highs I am hearing the same thing over and over: less with thinner gauge (and apparently mids become more noticeable because of the highs lost). What I am not clear on is lows; some say more with thinner, others more with thicker. Lows are, in a way, a bigger concern of mine because several pickups I've played with 44 AWG wire had plenty of highs and while strong in lows perhaps could have been stronger. The standard I keep coming back to is stock Fender, where bass pickups are 42 AWG and all those basses just seem to have ridiculous low end happening in spite of the pickup locations.
Hopkins
Commercial User
I guess it depends on what is held equal... if DCR is equal, thinner wire will be quieter (less turns). If turns are equal, they should be the same but thinner wire will have higher DCR. At least that's how I understand it.
