41-44 AWG: Who cares?

[rumblinbass]

that's about all I can offer and only based on reading and research.

as Hopkins suggested, the Pickup Makers Forum on the Music Electronics forum has a lot of information. David Schwab actively posts there (and an active TB'er) as well as Jason Lollar. Those guys would be able to answer based on experience.

 

[Hopkins]

I guess it depends on what is held equal... if DCR is equal, thinner wire will be quieter (less turns). If turns are equal, they should be the same but thinner wire will have higher DCR. At least that's how I understand it.

I was always under the impression that resistance was the key factor in a pickups output. I had no clue that the number of turns was the key factor.

 

[rumblinbass]

I was always under the impression that resistance was the key factor in a pickups output. I had no clue that the number of turns was the key factor.

I don't know if there is one key factor. I always see DCR spec'ed but I think that has become standard because it is easy to measure with a DMM.

Number of turns will affect DCR, capacitance and inductance.

 

[thiocyclist]

Turns are more indicative of output than DCR from what I have read. DCR is a function of turns and wire thickness. Thinner wire has more DCR per unit length.

 

[Jensby design]

Surely you understand I titled this thread to get attention, not in some vain attempt to say wire gauge doesn't matter.

enigmatic sarcasm routine.

Tone wire

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Let's hold these constant: bobbin architecture, coil height, number of turns, how it is wound/density, magnets, wiring harness, strings, bass, you name it. Pretend it's a Jazz Bass neck pickup if that helps. Now. Change the magnet wire from 42 to 44 AWG. What happens? Isn't that an answerable question?

Okay, if you kept everything else the same, particularly the number of turns and the overall coil geometry, and you just changed from 42 to 44 awg wire, you could expect:

1.) The output level would go up a little bit, due to the increased DCR, which loads the amp a little more.

2.) The resonant peak would be lowered somewhat, reducing the highs and boosting the high-mids.

However, these would both be small changes. The difference in DCR, impedance, and capacitance if only the wire gauge were changed, wouldn't be very much.

Much larger shifts in the tone curve will come from changing the number of turns, and/or the shape and position of the wires in relation to the magnetic field.

When I develop new pickups for my basses, I usually start out with a target for the DCR and number of turns, based on the wire that I want to use. That, combined with the magnet size and strength I've chosen, establishes the output level (power) and amp loading for the design. Then I play around with the coil height, bobbin thickness, layering, etc., shifting the wires around in relation to the magnetic field, to shape the tone curve the way that I want it.

But that's just how I do it. As I said before, pickup design is a complex problem with many interconnected factors. There are different ways to approach it, to work towards a particular result. Two pickups can be quite different in "recipe" and end up with the same tone.

 

[rumblinbass]

That, combined with the magnet size and strength I've chosen, establishes the output level (power) and amp loading for the design.

can you expand on this a little? don't quite understand what you mean by amp loading.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

can you expand on this a little? don't quite understand what you mean by amp loading.

Well, that's not my area of expertise. I'm a mechanical guy, not so much of an electronics type. The amp builders and techs can give you a better answer.

But basically, the preamp circuit of a bass amp will be somewhat sensitive to how it is electronically "loaded". That is, when you plug in the pickup and the cord, they become part of the preamp circuit. So, the DCR, impedance, and capacitance of the pickup and the cord can affect how that circuit works, and how the tone curve is passed through it. Most modern solid state amps are designed to handle a fairly wide range of input loading, but some tube amps can be quite sensitive.

The point is, when you design a pickup, you should try to make it within the range of DCR, impedance, and capacitance that most amps are designed to work with. If you make your pickup way out of that range, such as a very high DCR or a very low number of turns, you are taking a chance that it may not work well with the customers' amp. It might sound fine through some amps and weird through others. The amps have their own tone characteristics, of course. If you stay within normal ranges of electrical loading, then the amp should behave as it was designed to.

 

[thiocyclist]

Okay, if you kept everything else the same, particularly the number of turns and the overall coil geometry, and you just changed from 42 to 44 awg wire, you could expect:

1.) The output level would go up a little bit, due to the increased DCR, which loads the amp a little more.

2.) The resonant peak would be lowered somewhat, reducing the highs and boosting the high-mids.

However, these would both be small changes. The difference in DCR, impedance, and capacitance if only the wire gauge were changed, wouldn't be very much.

Much larger shifts in the tone curve will come from changing the number of turns, and/or the shape and position of the wires in relation to the magnetic field.

When I develop new pickups for my basses, I usually start out with a target for the DCR and number of turns, based on the wire that I want to use. That, combined with the magnet size and strength I've chosen, establishes the output level (power) and amp loading for the design. Then I play around with the coil height, bobbin thickness, layering, etc., shifting the wires around in relation to the magnetic field, to shape the tone curve the way that I want it.

But that's just how I do it. As I said before, pickup design is a complex problem with many interconnected factors. There are different ways to approach it, to work towards a particular result. Two pickups can be quite different in "recipe" and end up with the same tone.

Thank you for that straightforward and highly descriptive response.

Tone wire

Man I am either not understanding you at all or you're a mean dude, I don't get it.

 

[Jensby design]

__________________
If "it's a crapshoot" then no awg of wire produces coils of a predictable tone and tone wires are a made up idea.

 

[thiocyclist]

__________________
If "it's a crapshoot" then no awg of wire produces coils of a predictable tone and tone wires are a made up idea.

So either it doesn't have an effect in your opinion or more likely you are saying that it is so unpredictable as to not be worth consideration...?

 

[GlennW]

Go with 42 unless you have a good reason to use something else. Probably over 90% of bass and guitar pickups are wound with 42. A few with 43, and fewer with 44. I've never heard of anyone using 41. Some Charlie Christian pickups used 38, but they're a horse of a different feather.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Well, I use 41 AWG wire in all of my bass pickups. But then, I have this mental problem with doing things just like everyone else does....

Why do I use #41 wire? Because I was able to buy about 30 lbs of it, in new condition, for $4/lb. Most magnet wire is $25-$35/lb. Since I'm making my own unique pickups for my own unique basses, I can use whatever danged wire I please, right? So, I wound some and experimented, and figured out "recipes" for the various model pickups that I make, all using the #41 wire. They work great, and my customers are happy with the sound from them. And the #41 wire is fairly easy to wind, with minimal breakage problems. I built a mechanical automatic feed winding machine that lays down tight, even layers. Even with the larger gauge wire, my coils are pretty compact.

I've been making my own pickups for about 7 years now, and I'm less than halfway through my stash of the magic #41 wire. What will I do when I run out? #41 wire is an oddity, a size that they don't make often. I'll keep watching for any more cheap batches, and if all else fails, I'll readjust my recipe to use #40 or #42.

As I keep saying, there many ways that you can get to the same result.

About predicting how a pickup will sound: Any of us pickup winders will tell you that it's tricky to predict what a new "recipe" of pickup will sound like. There are a lot of factors that mess around with each other. You have to experiment, changing one factor at a time and keeping good records, to build up the experience to make better predictions. But once you settle on a recipe, and have good control over your winding and building process, then your pickups will be consistent in sound from one to the next. Pickup making isn't some mystical voodoo thing. It just takes experimentation to develop a product, and solid manufacturing technique to make it repeatable.

 

[rumblinbass]

Why do I use #41 wire? Because I was able to buy about 30 lbs of it, in new condition, for $4/lb.

Sounds like a good reason to me.

 

[GlennW]

Well, I use 41 AWG wire in all of my bass pickups. But then, I have this mental problem with doing things just like everyone else does....

Ok, that's one person who uses 41.

Which pickup manufacturers and/or custom winders use 41?

 

[Jensby design]

So either it doesn't have an effect in your opinion or more likely you are saying that it is so unpredictable as to not be worth consideration...?

It makes less of a difference than most pickup makers would have you believe.It is the tone wood of pickup,yes it makes a small difference but so does the magnet,bobbin shape,number of turns,location on instrument,distance from strings,wind pattern and probably a dozen other thing.

Coil taps so you can chose between all or part of the coil.

I would like to try winding 2 different sized wires onto a bobbin at the same time and use that like a coil tap.
Has anybody heard of this being done because that would truly answer your question.

 

[walterw]

What will I do when I run out? #41 wire is an oddity, a size that they don't make often. I'll keep watching for any more cheap batches, and if all else fails, I'll readjust my recipe to use #40 or #42.

and the internets will be abuzz with folks looking for prized "pre-#42 wire" bruce johnson pickups, because the new ones just aren't the same

 

[two fingers]

and the internets will be abuzz with folks looking for prized "pre-#42 wire" bruce johnson pickups, because the new ones just aren't the same

The troof.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

And if I were a greedy shyster, I would write all kinds of stuff on forums about how superior the tone is from pickups wound with #41 wire. Then respool what I have left of it onto small 1 lb spools and sell them for $50 each.

Then find some other wire for cheap, rework my recipes, and do it all over again.....

I got the #41 wire at a big local electronics surplus place. They have all kinds of wire there, and plenty of magnet wire of all sizes, including old rolls from the 1950's (most of which are unusable). The local pickup-winding fanatics all have their names in there, and when any #42-#44 wire comes in, they fight over it. So I was in there poking around, and I saw this new-looking 5 lb spool of Elektrasola 41 awg wire. I asked what they wanted for it, and they said scrap rate, $4 lb. He said that nobody wanted it, because it obviously would never work for making pickups. I mean, everyone knows that.

So, I bought it, took it back to the shop, and started winding test pickups with it. I had bought some small new rolls of #42, for the usual premium prices, and I figured I'd save it for later and work the bugs out of my machine with the cheap #41 wire. Well, the machine ran well with the #41, and the test pickups were coming out real close to what I wanted.

I went back to the surplus store, and found a second new roll of the #41 wire. I asked if they had any more, and he dug around back and brought out a carton of four more brand new 5 lb rolls of it. I bought it all for $4/lb. I started making all my pickups with #41 wire, and that was 2005. I still haven't even opened those expensive little rolls of #42 wire.

If there's one thing that I've learned in my 20+ years as a pro Luthier, it's not to believe anything that the Common Wisdom says is Established Knowledge, unless I test it out myself. The Luthier world is full of silly old wives tales that get passed around endlessly.

 

[GlennW]

If there's one thing that I've learned in my 20+ years as a pro Luthier, it's not to believe anything that the Common Wisdom says is Established Knowledge, unless I test it out myself. The Luthier world is full of silly old wives tales that get passed around endlessly.

Surely you can't be implying that Leo had it wrong when he chose 42...and 60+ years later they're still using it.