41-44 AWG: Who cares?

[thiocyclist]

You did.

What I understand from this thread is that it is more art than science. The science is basic but the magic to get the sound you seek is the hard part. It is more of a dance of materials - with the performance of each part inextricably tied to the others. The is no "one thing" - because that one thing behaves like a totally different thing depending on its partners and deployment.

So the answer to the OP is - stop worrying about the wire gauge! You can only go by sound. And that is that.

This is what I walked away from this thread with.

I got a little annoyed at several people's snarky/arrogant responses so I put the thread down but Bruce was always awesome and later realized some of the snark from others was still hiding a worthy answer.

wire gauge affects the tone, but nobody can tell if the bass in a recording is using pickups with 40 or 44 gauge, so who cares?

But how does that help anyone? If it's a meaningful variable it would sure be cool to understand it, even if in isolation.

Did you ever compare a SD SPB-1 and a whatever their name for the hot for P bass is?

You seem not to.

K... buy me a P Bass, the SPB-1 and the "whatever" pickup please. You're one of the folks who completely misunderstood why I made the thread. I don't think anyone ever confirmed those pickups are exactly the same in other ways anyway which would totally kill any value of that comparison, number of turns for one thing.

 

[Hopkins]

This is what I walked away from this thread with.

I got a little annoyed at several people's snarky/arrogant responses so I put the thread down but Bruce was always awesome and later realized some of the snark from others was still hiding a worthy answer.



But how does that help anyone? If it's a meaningful variable it would sure be cool to understand it, even if in isolation.



K... buy me a P Bass, the SPB-1 and the "whatever" pickup please. You're one of the folks who completely misunderstood why I made the thread. I don't think anyone ever confirmed those pickups are exactly the same in other ways anyway which would totally kill any value of that comparison, number of turns for one thing.

I'm not surprised, I have researched pickup making online for a while now. There seem to be no hard answers anywhere else, so I'm not surprised that its more of the same here.

Bruce's replies were informative but I still leave this thread with more questions than I had before. In the end understanding is over rated. If I can wind a pickup that sounds good with whatever wire, and however many turns, I can always replicate it. So I guess I will be going the trial and error route.

 

[Hopkins]

Did you ever compare a SD SPB-1 and a whatever their name for the hot for P bass is?

You seem not to.

I have compared them both, the SBP-2 "Hot" has a bit more output with slightly less high end than the SPB-1 "Vintage" pretty much like every over wound pickup.

I would like to know how you know that the only difference between the two pickups is wire gauge. The Duncan website says it is basically an over wound SPB-1 but they don't give any specifics as to material, wire gauge, or even magnet material.

 

[GlennW]

The Duncan website says it is basically an over wound SPB-1 but they don't give any specifics as to material, wire gauge, or even magnet material.

I've had the SPB-1, -2, and -3.

The SPB-2 has 3/16" alnico rods. You can tell because the rods/poles are the magnets (no bar magnet below), and there are no ceramic rods, so that leaves alnico. Whether they're the same power/gauss as the magnets on the SPB-1, I don't know.

Iirc the SPB-2 was over 20kOhms (10+k each coil). I'd guess 43, maybe 44, for the wire. I doubt if you could get 10+k of 42 on a standard height P bobbin.

 

[Hopkins]

I've had the SPB-1, -2, and -3.

The SPB-2 has 3/16" alnico rods. You can tell because the rods/poles are the magnets (no bar magnet below), and there are no ceramic rods, so that leaves alnico. Whether they're the same power/gauss as the magnets on the SPB-1, I don't know.

Iirc the SPB-2 was over 20kOhms (10+k each coil). I'd guess 43, maybe 44, for the wire. I doubt if you could get 10+k of 42 on a standard height P bobbin.

I didn't know they were wound to 20k. I had all three at different times, but I never measured the resistance of any of them. The only one I still have is the SPB-1, I don't really care for the other two. You are right, I also don't see how you could get 10k on a single P bobbin with 42awg wire. Just out of curiosity, if the SBP-2 is 20k what is the Q-Pound wound to, and what difference does the larger pole pieces make as far as output goes?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I'm not surprised, I have researched pickup making online for a while now. There seem to be no hard answers anywhere else, so I'm not surprised that its more of the same here.

Bruce's replies were informative but I still leave this thread with more questions than I had before. In the end understanding is over rated. If I can wind a pickup that sounds good with whatever wire, and however many turns, I can always replicate it. So I guess I will be going the trial and error route.

That's exactly the overall point that I was trying to make. Designing a pickup is a complex problem. That means that the variables aren't independent from each other. If you change one variable, it almost always causes changes in other variables at the same time.

So you can't flatly define what will happen when you change one thing. You can't say that a pickup wound with 42 awg wire will sound like this and a pickup wound with 44 awg wire will sound like that. It's more complicated than that.

Unfortunately, people keep demanding that we define exactly what happens when you change one particular variable. They want answers! So, someone says it will do this. And someone else says, no, it will do that. And neither one is wrong. They are each describing what they saw in some particular cases. And the results can be opposite.

We (pickup builders) aren't trying to be vague or deceptive. There just isn't a simple answer.

It's very difficult to predict exactly what a new pickup recipe is going to sound like. If we have experience with other recipes that are close to the new one, then we can guess fairly well. But most times, it still takes some trial and error to adjust the recipe to get the exact result that we want.

Even someone with the experience of Seymour Duncan and his crew, still does trial and error to refine the recipe for a new model pickup.

 

[seang15]

You do realize that pickups are resonant circuits, right? Changing the wire gauge completely alters the behavior of the circuit. You would have to be deaf not to hear the tonal impact.



He was talking about using thinner wire, since the winds would create a greater surface area for the dielectric (insulation) between the plates (conductors.) The capacitance of a coil appears parallel to the output, so high frequencies see a lower impedance load. This reduces highs.

I haven't read through yet entirely, but I have learned that once line6man states something on a subject like this, he usually effectively sums up the convo, provides an appropriate and exacting answer, done deal.

No need to read further :thumbup:

 

[seang15]

Oh and use an ohm meter on some different pups. You can get a decent one at Harbor Freight for five bucks. You'll see an obvious difference in impedance with all these different wire gauges.

How that effects the sound, see line6man's quote.

 

[GlennW]

I didn't know they were wound to 20k. I had all three at different times, but I never measured the resistance of any of them. The only one I still have is the SPB-1, I don't really care for the other two. You are right, I also don't see how you could get 10k on a single P bobbin with 42awg wire. Just out of curiosity, if the SBP-2 is 20k what is the Q-Pound wound to, and what difference does the larger pole pieces make as far as output goes?

Duncan lists some specs, look for the "tone chart," or something like that, and scroll down to the passive P-Bass section. The QP DCR should be listed.

All P coil heights are not created equal. I think standard height is 5/16" or 3/8," but you can use longer magnets and increase the coil height which will allow for more wire. Also, tall/thinner coils sound different than short/thick coils even when they have the same number of turns with the same wire.

I think the generalization is that stronger magnets increase output and add brightness. That's one reason many "hot" guitar pickups use 43 with ceramic; the ceramic will sort of offset the reduced highs from the 43, so you end up with a more powerful pickup that sounds ok. It's kind of a balancing act. In the end, you either like the way it sounds, or you don't.

Alnico V was the standard for pickup magnets, but in the last few years weaker alnico magnets have become a popular option for the tone hounds. Weaker alnico magnets were used before, but that's a small percentage.

I'm sure you heard of Fred Hammon's Dark Stars. I read where he said that when he was studying/researching the old Hagstroms Bi-sonics he came across three variations. One type had weaker magnets with a lot more wire; another type had strong magnets with less wire; and there was an in between version as well. It's the balancing act business again. I have no idea how they sounded in relation to each other, but he didn't mention any sonic differences that I recall.

 

[thiocyclist]

I haven't read through yet entirely, but I have learned that once line6man states something on a subject like this, he usually effectively sums up the convo, provides an appropriate and exacting answer, done deal.

No need to read further :thumbup:

Parasitic capacitance is probably the easiest effect to understand, but there are lots of other things wire gauge has been said to affect that he didn't even mention.

Oh and use an ohm meter on some different pups. You can get a decent one at Harbor Freight for five bucks. You'll see an obvious difference in impedance with all these different wire gauges.

How that effects the sound, see line6man's quote.

I think you are even more lost than I am if you are using ohms to compare everything. Wire gauge changes the resistance independent of turn number based on the DCR per unit length, so if wire gauge changes and nothing else you'll see a change in ohms that may not correlate with the conventional wisdom of higher output. Lower resonant peak, less highs? Maybe.

 

[Hopkins]

Duncan lists some specs, look for the "tone chart," or something like that, and scroll down to the passive P-Bass section. The QP DCR should be listed.

All P coil heights are not created equal. I think standard height is 5/16" or 3/8," but you can use longer magnets and increase the coil height which will allow for more wire. Also, tall/thinner coils sound different than short/thick coils even when they have the same number of turns with the same wire.

I think the generalization is that stronger magnets increase output and add brightness. That's one reason many "hot" guitar pickups use 43 with ceramic; the ceramic will sort of offset the reduced highs from the 43, so you end up with a more powerful pickup that sounds ok. It's kind of a balancing act. In the end, you either like the way it sounds, or you don't.

Alnico V was the standard for pickup magnets, but in the last few years weaker alnico magnets have become a popular option for the tone hounds. Weaker alnico magnets were used before, but that's a small percentage.

I'm sure you heard of Fred Hammon's Dark Stars. I read where he said that when he was studying/researching the old Hagstroms Bi-sonics he came across three variations. One type had weaker magnets with a lot more wire; another type had strong magnets with less wire; and there was an in between version as well. It's the balancing act business again. I have no idea how they sounded in relation to each other, but he didn't mention any sonic differences that I recall.

Great post man, that definitely clears up how the magnets play their role in the over all tone of a pickup.

 

[GlennW]

Magnets ARE a big deal with pickups, but you need a Gaussmeter and the necessary equipment and knowledge to decharge and recharge to really know what going on. And that's probably just the tip of the iceberg. I'm ignorant on the particulars of magnets, but I know they exist.

 

[Jensby design]

I think the generalization is that stronger magnets increase output and add brightness. That's one reason many "hot" guitar pickups use 43 with ceramic; the ceramic will sort of offset the reduced highs from the 43, so you end up with a more powerful pickup that sounds ok. It's kind of a balancing act.

Yes,and that is why I chose 44awg to go with N42 neodymium on my last build.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Yes, that's a reasonable generalization. If you are trying to make the pickup "hotter" (that is, increase the output level and the overall range), then you usually:

1.) Increase the magnetic field strength by increasing the diameter, length, and/or charge strength of the magnets,

2.) Increase the number of coil turns. If the physical space inside the bobbin is tight, this may require going to a smaller gauge wire,

3.) Compact the coil within the magnetic field. Bring the wire turns in close to the magnets to increase the level of signal that each turn gets. This can be done by making the coils taller and narrower, using tighter layering, thinner wall bobbins, etc.

A classic example of this is comparing the Duncan SPB-1, SPB-2, and SPB-3 pickups. The same basic design pickup in Vintage, Somewhat Hot, and Really Hot versions. The SPB-3 Quarter Pounder has magnets that are about twice as powerful as the magnets in the SPB-1. Plus, the bobbin is physically taller, there are more turns (I think) and the coil is wrapped in fairly tight around the magnets. The coil turns and geometry play a part in it, but the big powerful magnets are the main reason why the Quarter Pounder sounds so much different from the relatively stock-Fender spec SPB-1.

Big powerful pickups do interesting things. You may like them or you may not. It depends on the bass, strings, and playing style. I personally like them for old-school rock type basses with flatwounds and high action. For about 8 years, I was buying bare SPB-3 coils from Duncan, mounting them in special housings, and using them in all the Scroll Basses that I build. They worked great with my basses.

Then I got into designing and winding my own pickups (in 2005) and I've taken the general idea of the Quarter Pounders and pushed it much further. The new pickup that I've developed for my new AMB-2 Scroll Basses is about twice as powerful as a Quarter Pounder. I'm using 3/8" dia x 3/4" long Alnico V magnets. The coils use my "magic" #41 wire, but they are tall and narrow and very close in to the magnets. It took a little bit of experimenting with the recipe, but they work beautifully with this bass. Exactly the sound I was looking for.

I'm not claiming that they would be magical in a Fender or whatever. I don't know, and I'm not really interested, because I don't sell my pickups as aftermarket replacements. I make them specifically for my basses only.

This is how we pickup winders work. We mix up our various recipes for different tastes and applications. In my case, I tune my recipe just for my basses. Seymour Duncan primarily supplies aftermarket replacements; bolt-in pickups to make standard production basses sound better or different. So they experiment with different recipes and offer a line of pickups to fit different tastes.

 

[SolarMan]

This just may be the greatest TB pickup thread ever.

 

[Teacher]

Yes indeed!

 

[GlennW]

The coils use my "magic" #41 wire, but they are tall and narrow and very close in to the magnets. It took a little bit of experimenting with the recipe, but they work beautifully with this bass. Exactly the sound I was looking for.

I'm sure your pickups sound great with 41. I never questioned that. I did notice that you specified bass pickups and figured if you tried 41 on a guitar pickup it may have been too bright...just a guess.

The first time I EVER read about 41 being used in bass/guitar pickups was when I first saw the title of this thread.

As far as veering off from conventional wisdom, the DeArmond gold foils used 10+/-kOhms of 44 wrapped around a rubber magnet, but they have a sound.

Neo magnets have gained a lot of popularity, and I believe they're comparatively new in pickups.

Now Leo, as frugal as he was, took pickups very seriously. The Tele uses two completely different pickups which are found on no other guitar (except the Esquire). Strat pickups are only only Strats (except the MusicMaster Bass, which may have been post-Leo). The Jag and Jazzmaster...got their own pickups. The SCPB, split-P, and Jazz Bass...different basses with completely different pickups. All different designs, and the vast majority use 42. I don't know, but I'd guess Leo may have tried 41 at some point.

Then take Gibson. For guitars it was mostly a P-90 or a HB...same basic pickups for MANY different guitars. Their bass mudbucker (it evolved) was put it all of their basses, EB-1, EB-2, EB-O, EB-OF, EB-3, etc...you want a Gibson bass, fine, it WILL have a mudbucker just like all the other Gibson basses. Exceptions always exist, but for a good while that's how it was. They had different pickups for the less expensive stuff. I think just about all of theirs are wound with 42.

None of that means fine pickups MUST use 42, but it is the most used gauge.

 

[Jensby design]

41 on a guitar pickup it may have been too bright.

Invalid Link Removed
The Lollar El Rayo has 41awg

 

[uOpt]

Allright, let's try this again.

AND PLEASE. Nobody is saying that these factors are all factors. There are additional ones. This is purely addressing what happens when you change wire gauge and then make an equally sized coil (that is what is done in practice).

A passive guitar or bass pickup is a 2nd order low pass filter with a resonance peak at the cutoff frequency. This is very basic electronics. Such a 2nd order LPF consists of a) a capacitance b) a resistance and c) an inductance. The cutoff frequency is determined with a very easy formula known to very first week student of anything.

If you change capacitance, resistance or inductance you change the cutoff frequency. That necessarily is a major factor in sound, you don't get to change the LPF cutoff frequency that has a resonance peak sitting on it without hearing it. Yes there will be *more* factors determining how the thing sounds, especially coil geometry and the shape of the magnetic field and how it covers the strings.

If you change from awg42 to awg43 and keep coil size (that is the parameter that stays constant in practice) these things happen:

[*]resistance goes up because the thinner wire has more resistance per length and you also need more length to arrive at the desired coil size
[*]capacitance goes up. Capacitance is electrical charges that are "right next to each other" but separated by an insulator. Your coil windings are a capacitor. You have more winds. However, you have a different wire thickness to insulation thickness which works against building up capacitance
[*]inductance goes up because of the increased number of winds


All these change not in a linear manner, so the outcome is kinda random, however it is predictable that the increase in resistance dominates the outcome, lowering the cutoff frequency and hence the frequency of the resonance peak.

YES and then there are other factors. But that is why switching from awg42 to awg43 for your coil winds makes a big difference and going from awg22 to awg24 for your electronics cavity does not.

 

[aquateen]

Then take Gibson. For guitars it was mostly a P-90 or a HB...same basic pickups for MANY different guitars. Their bass mudbucker (it evolved) was put it all of their basses, EB-1, EB-2, EB-O, EB-OF, EB-3, etc...you want a Gibson bass, fine, it WILL have a mudbucker just like all the other Gibson basses. Exceptions always exist, but for a good while that's how it was. They had different pickups for the less expensive stuff. I think just about all of theirs are wound with 42.

the Ripper, Grabber, G3, SB series, LPs, Victory, Tbirds and other models did not use the 60s mudbucker. just sayin'