Not to mention that most people buy a cab for it's overall sound, just just how much low end there is!
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410 makes more bass than 115?...118?
- Thread starter sweetcharlie454
- Start date
Not to mention that most people buy a cab for it's overall sound, just just how much low end there is!
as far as I understand it - it's a matter of moving air. meaning that if you don't take size into the consideration - it's how much the speak is able to move to push the air around. normally 15" speakers has a much bigger movement - which equals moving more air. so you definately need to take that in consideration. I know this link will defend the use of 15" speakers - but I believe alex over any GC representative at any given time - christ he builds those cabs - he knows what he's talking about.
alex's version from barefacedbass.com:
The amount of air a speaker can move is equal to its cone area (Sd) multiplied by its maximum excursion (Xmax). This is called volume displacement (Vd). The 10" speaker has Sd=355.4 square centimetres and Xmax=3.2mm therefore Vd=114 cubic centimetres. Our 15" speaker has Sd=881.1 square centimetres and Xmax=9.6mm therefore Vd=846 cubic centimetres. So the single 15" woofer we use can move as much air as seven and a half 10" woofers. Not bad at all!
of course it all matters about which speaker is in which cabinet - here he compares the old fridge from ampeg to "the big one"
alex's version from barefacedbass.com:
The amount of air a speaker can move is equal to its cone area (Sd) multiplied by its maximum excursion (Xmax). This is called volume displacement (Vd). The 10" speaker has Sd=355.4 square centimetres and Xmax=3.2mm therefore Vd=114 cubic centimetres. Our 15" speaker has Sd=881.1 square centimetres and Xmax=9.6mm therefore Vd=846 cubic centimetres. So the single 15" woofer we use can move as much air as seven and a half 10" woofers. Not bad at all!
of course it all matters about which speaker is in which cabinet - here he compares the old fridge from ampeg to "the big one"
Exactly. I mean, even going on frequency response alone,if you have multiple smaller speakers that aren't designed to be able to put out a lot of lows, putting a bunch of them together isn't going to change their frequency response. You'll get more overall sound volume, sure, but it's not gong to sound the same as the equivalent speaker area from a larger speaker designed to put out fatter low end.
Again tho, we aren't going to cover all the points in such a generic thread. In this instance the displacement of the 15 is comparable to 7.5, 10 inch speakers. But, how much power does it take for the 15 to reach its full exertion of 9.6mm as compared for the 10s to reach 3.2mm.
I've heard of people just adding the number of speakers. I've heard of the pi x radius squared formula.......The only thing that I've ever heard that can not be debated of stated without the "there are many other factors involved" disclamer is use your ears. I really think it dependes on speaker size, speaker voicing, material the speaker is made of, voice coil length, magnet size, box size, box shape, listeners proximity to speaker, speaker location in room, amp settings, amount of power, effects involved, strings,pickups, wood, fingers, pic.....etc etc etc. That is just too difficult to shop for. If you use your ears and compare items you'll end up buying what you like to hear as opposed to what specs on paper say you should like. But *** do I know
alex is 100% correct. that's another thing...speakers with high vd will move way more air than traditional designs. i'm getting a 212 cab that will move almost as much air as my 810, for example.
however, most commercial bass cabs use the traditional types of speakers where the vd isn't so high. and the technology of making high xmax woofers is still relatively new and is just now starting to make its presence known to bassists.
you pretty much nailed it. what counts is what it sounds like. however, using speaker science to decide will help you from making a possible mistake, so it's not a bad thing to learn.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
True, if there was a major difference between the average electric bass ten, twelve and fifteen. But save a very few notable exceptions, like the 3012LF and 3015LF, there isn't.
to me it always sounded that a couple (2 or 4) of 10s sounded more mid-scooped - which can also be perceived as more bassy... (i must say I never tried stacking 10s vertically, which I intend to do the next time I come across a 210 speaker)...
I think the biggest trick is in the reproduction of mids, not lows... you know, like a Pbass will always sound deep and all, but we all know those are in fact low-mids... actually, a Jazz will go lower, but it still won't sound as deep as a Pbass (with no serious EQing)...
the only formula I would consider is:
knowing your needs * reading everything you can (theory + reviews) * trying out as much as you can = making a wise purchase
as soon as one factor on the left side of the equation goes near zero, the right side of it will go as well
I think the biggest trick is in the reproduction of mids, not lows... you know, like a Pbass will always sound deep and all, but we all know those are in fact low-mids... actually, a Jazz will go lower, but it still won't sound as deep as a Pbass (with no serious EQing)...
the only formula I would consider is:
knowing your needs * reading everything you can (theory + reviews) * trying out as much as you can = making a wise purchase
as soon as one factor on the left side of the equation goes near zero, the right side of it will go as well
It really doesn't
As some geezer pointed out, it's a similar size to a single 20 inch driver:
10 inch driver giving ~78.5 inch^2, 4x 10 inch drivers giving ~314 inch^2
20 inch driver gives an area of ~314 inch^2
Yes it does, just last week I tried a Fender bassman 410 cabinet using my gk800rb head and my bongo bass, and it was like fishing for bass in a lake full of trout. I could not get any real low end, but this cabinet didn't have any ports to help the low end.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
- 76
- Disclosures
- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
yep, cab cubic volume and design/number, size and shape of ports/ speaker specs all make a difference. You will find that out if you ever just throw any ol' speaker in a cab that was not designed for that speaker, did it before and it sounded like A$$.
Cubic volume and port size effects the freq response of the cab
Speaker cabinet design programs require all this speaker data to determine
the proper cab design: (courtesy of Peavey)
# Znom (ohms) 8
# Revc (ohms) 6.21
# Sd (Square Meters) 0.084
# BL (T/M) 22.73
# Fo (Hz) 33.916
# Vas (liters) 155.06
# Cms (uM/N) 154.8
# Mms (gm) 142.3
# Qms 10.669
# Qes 0.364
# Qts 0.352
# Xmax (mm) 9.6
# Le (mH) 0.82
# SPL (1W 1m) 93.6
# No (%) 1.33%
# Vd (cu. in. / ml) 98.3 / 1611
# Pmax (Watts pgm.) 1600
# Disp (cu. in. / ml) 204 / 3344
Cubic volume and port size effects the freq response of the cab
Speaker cabinet design programs require all this speaker data to determine
the proper cab design: (courtesy of Peavey)
# Znom (ohms) 8
# Revc (ohms) 6.21
# Sd (Square Meters) 0.084
# BL (T/M) 22.73
# Fo (Hz) 33.916
# Vas (liters) 155.06
# Cms (uM/N) 154.8
# Mms (gm) 142.3
# Qms 10.669
# Qes 0.364
# Qts 0.352
# Xmax (mm) 9.6
# Le (mH) 0.82
# SPL (1W 1m) 93.6
# No (%) 1.33%
# Vd (cu. in. / ml) 98.3 / 1611
# Pmax (Watts pgm.) 1600
# Disp (cu. in. / ml) 204 / 3344
Right.Like I was awake or something...............
I didn't know there was gonna be a test.A dog ate my homework.
Edit: I'm guessing you didn't go to middle school in a small town in Texas in the mid 70's,right?
low E = 41hz
at 68 deg F a 41 hz sound wave is 27 feet.
Many bass players standing next to their amp on stage perceive they don't have enough low end so they dial in more. As a sound guy most of the time it buries the mix out in the room for this reason. (thats why I like being wireless so I can walk out in the room and hear if my tone is mud) It usually means my bass will sound bright on stage but I know it sounds full out front.
I have noticed this mixing recordings as well. If I'm too close to my mixing monitors I tend to over mix the bass. Then I slide back from my desk a few feet and there's the bass I was not hearing.
:
Soundwaves are longitudal waves and are therefore in a constant motion. Any position in the course of the wave will recieve all the components of a sine wave.
