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5-4-1 What key is it?

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#61
Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
I don't think you and I were saying *exactly* the same thing. IIRC, you were saying that it doesn't matter what key it's in.

Well I agree with what you have been saying - my take on this was a sort of frustrated. anguished cry of - not so much that it doesn't matter - but rather how does it help you to know?

Which is what Brad is objecting to!! :hmm:



I was saying that it does kinda matter, in terms of locating the basic tonality/modality of the song. My point was that you can either argue (a) that TCOB is not really in a key, if by being in a key one means strictly adhering to the rules of conventional major-minor Western harmony as taught in our many fine educational institutions, but rather in some mode or other; or (b) if we interpret "key" a bit more loosely, as meaning basically tonal center, that TCOB is in C if it's in anything. There's no meaningful sense in which TCOB can be in F at all, if the tonal center is not F.
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I agree with you that it is not really in any key - that is, you can say it is in C - but how does it help you to know that - why not just be satisfied that some songs are ambiguous as to tonality?


....but this is getting kinda boring...;)
 
#62
Well Bruce, you would need to know what the tonality is to determine what you're going to play on it whether you're a bassist, pianist, brass or reed player, just like you'd want to know if you were playing a blues.

This tune is sort of like a blues turnaround played over and over again.
 
#63
Originally posted by Phil Smith
Well Bruce, you would need to know what the tonality is to determine what you're going to play on it whether you're a bassist, pianist, brass or reed player -
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Why!!!?? :confused: You already know what chords are involved and what notes are in each chord, so how does the tonality help you any further? This is clearly not a tune that is using functional harmony, so knowing the key adds nothing - you just take each chord on its merits !!
 
#64
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Why!!!?? :confused: You already know what chords are involved and what notes are in each chord, so how does the tonality help you any further? This is clearly not a tune that is using functional harmony, so knowing the key adds nothing - you just take each chord on its merits !!
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It helps you in the same way that it helps you when you're blowing over any blues, or any tune for that matter. You're :confused: because you're thinking inside of a particular box. Come on out!
 
#65
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Why!!!?? :confused: You already know what chords are involved and what notes are in each chord, so how does the tonality help you any further? This is clearly not a tune that is using functional harmony, so knowing the key adds nothing - you just take each chord on its merits !!
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The reason would be that you don't just play the same thing over, say, a C7 every time you encounter one, regardless of whether it's functioning as a "blues" I7, a V7 in F, or a V7 of V in Bbm. The notes in the chord proper might be the same, but the passing notes you use, the resolutions you adopt, and the chordal extensions you select most likely won't be.
 
#66
Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
The reason would be that you don't just play the same thing over, say, a C7 every time you encounter one, regardless of whether it's functioning as a "blues" I7, a V7 in F, or a V7 of V in Bbm. The notes in the chord proper might be the same, but the passing notes you use, the resolutions you adopt, and the chordal extensions you select most likely won't be.
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But that's nothing to do with knowing what key we are in, in this particular sequence!! Arggghh!!

:bawl:
 
#70
Open for business! Original poster's question was not answered.
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Actually it has been answered. You cannot say what key it is in based on the information given.

Either TCOB is in no conventional key at all
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I think this is likely the answer given more information. The original poster doesnt actually say what type of chords they are (c, Bb, and F...)

I am correctly assuming that all keys are either major or minor, and that dorian, mixolydian, etc. are not keys.
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Main Entry: 1key
Pronunciation: 'kE
Function: noun
7 : a system of tones and harmonies generated from a hierarchical scale of seven tones based on a tonic

Im going to go out on a limb and say that any group of tones in any order can be called a key including and mode of any scale. Someone please tell me if Im wrong. Isnt the chromatic scale a key...? Lets not forget to differentiate between key and key signature.

EDIT: I didnt think to mention about the last quote, minor is the 6th mode of the major scale, commonly referred to as Aeolian.
 
#71
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Is this a race? We have all the time we like - people can come back whenever they like and read it - best to get it right rather than hurry !!

Yes, take all the posts you need to finally get to the point:rolleyes:

What's wrong with clarifying a question - it helps everybody a lot in their replies, if they know where the original poster is coming from!!

There's nothing wrong with it, just do it up front instead of adding on later. That's what I'm saying.

Well - as you are the only one objecting to what I said and contradicting me - maybe you ought to apply that to youself!!

Sometimes you really can't see the forest for the trees. One very simple reaosn for wanting to know has been put forth all ready... it's very helpful on the bandstand.

Believe it or not it is very easy to play a song like this if you know the root. As long as someone telles me the key I don't have to "think" the chords, I can work the intervals, which will not change regardless of where you start. Again, if the original poster calls this song in F and plays C-Bb-F chances are there will be problems.

Granted this is a simple way to look at it but sometimes things can be simple.

Several people have agreed with me and Richard in particular is saying exactly what I did - so how about accusing him of being elitist and ranting... or is this just a personal vendetta against me, as usual!


:rolleyes:


You're obviously not reading the same posts by Richard that I did. Where did you read Richard asking "why" they wanted to know? When did Richard say something like this:

"Who cares what key it's in? The guitarist is going to shred on a blues scale and everyone will keep plodding along, so it doesn't matter!!"

That is eltist. You don't know what the guitar player will do when playing this... because YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THE GUITAR PLAYER IS OR ANYTHING ABOUT THEM.

Duh.

And somehow you still can't see the obvious stereotype you're spouting. I'm sure if I played this song with Steve Vai he'd shred on the blues scale. And I of course would have to plod along.

Thank you, Nostradamus:rolleyes:

This isn't personal... I just told you how what you've said sounds to me. Elitist. I'd say the same thing to anyone who came off the same way. If that's a personal vendetta you're correct... it's a vendetta against locked minds like yours.


Where's the :yawn: smiley.....!!

Where's that :whiney: smiley?
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#73
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield Well I agree with what you have been saying - my take on this was a sort of frustrated. anguished cry of - not so much that it doesn't matter - but rather how does it help you to know?

Which is what Brad is objecting to!! :hmm:

No, it's not. Obviously you haven't a clue as to what I've said. Cool.


I agree with you that it is not really in any key - that is, you can say it is in C - but how does it help you to know that - why not just be satisfied that some songs are ambiguous as to tonality?


....but this is getting kinda boring...;)

That we agree on... at least this tangent;)

I look forward to the next gig where we don't have a chart and the keyboard player, when asked what key he wants to do a standard in, say:

Why? It's ambiguous. Just play.
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#75
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Why!!!?? :confused: You already know what chords are involved and what notes are in each chord, so how does the tonality help you any further? This is clearly not a tune that is using functional harmony, so knowing the key adds nothing - you just take each chord on its merits !!
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See my earlier post. You don't have to immediately know every chord of this song to play it.
 
#77
Originally posted by Jazz Ad
So when you're all finished splicing hair and have agreed that the song is in F, degree V, maybe we can start playing it ?
Unless someone wants to look smart and write it in C with flats added everytime you meet a Bb ?

I fail seeing the point.
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No, we've agreed the opposite, that the song is not in F at all.:D And writing it in C with accidentals is actually a sensible--and, BTW, commonly used--method of indicating that the tonal center of the song is C.
 
#79
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Give me a concrete example - I disagree in this particular case, but am willing to listen... :hmm:
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Honestly, I'd be happy to, if we were sitting over a couple of pints with a bass handy. It would be easy, and you'd hear it in a second. But I lack the patience to try to write it out for you in this setting. It's nothing personal, it's just that I always find such attempts mostly incomprehensible anyway. I'll just say this: think about how you establish the tonal center of a song, think about how you manage the dominant-tonic resolution, think about where you use passing tones and why (and which ones you choose). If you don't approach a 5-4-1-5 differently from a 1-b7-4-1, I'd be surprised.
 
#80
There was a time when I was really excited by the prospect of learning more about music theory. Then I read this thread. :spit:

I'm no expert, but it seems beyond pointless to actually argue over what key a song is in when the only clues you have to work with are three notes! :rolleyes:

Carry on, and have fun. I'm going to go play bass... :bassist:
 
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