5-4-1 What key is it?

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
No, we've agreed the opposite, that the song is not in F at all. And writing it in C with accidentals is actually a sensible--and, BTW, commonly used--method of indicating that the tonal center of the song is C.

Commonly used, as in never ?
For example, I can't think of a Real Book tune written this way.
It's painful, unpractical and doesn't seem to make much sense.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Commonly used, as in never ?
For example, I can't think of a Real Book tune written this way.
It's painful, unpractical and doesn't seem to make much sense.

Don't have any of my books handy, but what key is "Killer Joe" in yours? There's a tune that goes back and forth between I and b7. Say C7 and Bb7. Are you gonna say that is/should be written out in F? I've never seen anybody do that.

 

[metron]

Ive got all my real books on my work pc! Killer Joe (Real Book #2) has no key signature designated at the beginning of the song.

 

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by metron
Ive got all my real books on my work pc! Killer Joe (Real Book #2) has no key signature designated at the beginning of the song.

Well thanks, but it's not helping much.
There must be other examples then.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Well thanks, but it's not helping much.
There must be other examples then.

I'm sure there are, but as I said, at the moment I'm not able to find them, since I'm without my books. If you're really interested, I'll see if I can find you some more. You could also do some looking yourself.

In any case, even one example is sufficient to establish that that "never" of yours was a bit too strong. You said you couldn't think of one Real Book song that did what I mention; well, now you can!

 

[grinder]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Commonly used, as in never ?
For example, I can't think of a Real Book tune written this way.
It's painful, unpractical and doesn't seem to make much sense.

That's the way I was taught to do it in theory class in college.

 

[metron]

Well thanks, but it's not helping much. There must be other examples then.

This is an example though. There are possibly more songs in the book I was looking through that have no key sig where all accidentals are written out then ones with a key sig at the beginning. It happens ALL the time.

 

[Phil Smith]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Commonly used, as in never ?
For example, I can't think of a Real Book tune written this way.
It's painful, unpractical and doesn't seem to make much sense.

Crack open a real book and see for yourself. Most of the tunes in the real book are written this way.

Tune in point, "Have You Met Miss Jones", the tune is in FMaj, one flat, but the tonal center of the tune changes and where it does you the melody notes incidentals. "Heaven", is another tune, it's in Bb, but there are G#'s, C#'s and F#'s in the melody.

The "Key" is the general rule, but there are always exceptions.

Lastly, the song isn't in F, what ever gave you that idea? Because it has an F chord?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Another example: Ana Maria. Obviously not in C major, but charted with no key signature. There are tons more. You can find a number of them without even getting past the Bs.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by lushfreak
There was a time when I was really excited by the prospect of learning more about music theory. Then I read this thread.

I'm no expert, but it seems beyond pointless to actually argue over what key a song is in when the only clues you have to work with are three notes!

Carry on, and have fun. I'm going to go play bass...

You actually have much more to go on than that

This is a very well known song (apparently in some circles) and as such is available for a listen. I'd be willing to bet that the people arguing in favor of F haven't heard the song

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Phil Smith
Crack open a real book and see for yourself. Most of the tunes in the real book are written this way.

Tune in point, "Have You Met Miss Jones", the tune is in FMaj, one flat, but the tonal center of the tune changes and where it does you the melody notes incidentals. "Heaven", is another tune, it's in Bb, but there are G#'s, C#'s and F#'s in the melody.

The "Key" is the general rule, but there are always exceptions.

Lastly, the song isn't in F, what ever gave you that idea? Because it has an F chord?

I am getting really bored with this debate - but I will just say that - we are not talking about a Jazz tune!!

If we were, then it would all make sense, but as we are not - it doesn't!!

 

[misterk73]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
You actually have much more to go on than that

This is a very well known song (apparently in some circles) and as such is available for a listen. I'd be willing to bet that the people arguing in favor of F haven't heard the song

OK, OK, so there's a little more to go one than three notes. (And, as much as I hate to admit it, this has been an educational and enlightening thread.)

I was just feeling surly and amazed at how many different ways you guys seemed to be saying what is functionally the same thing. For example, if I want to get some folks together in a room to play this tune, and half of them want to play the song in F and half of them want to play the song in C with a flatted seventh, won't everything work out OK as long as everybody knows what chords to play (over)?

I appreciate the talk of tonal centers and the like from a music philosophy point of view. However, in terms of the practical matter of what key it's in -- and "key" to me, seems to be just a general, flexible guideline as to what notes are fair game or not within the context of a given tune -- does it really matter whether it's in F or C with a flatted B? Ignoring the tonal center issue, it's the same thing, right?

I've heard the song before, but at the time I knew even less about theory than I do now. Its key signature was the last thing on my mind. (I think I was much more concerned with shotgunning a Pabst Blue Ribbon...)

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally posted by lushfreak
half of them want to play the song in F and half of them want to play the song in C with a flatted seventh, won't everything work out OK as long as everybody knows what chords to play (over)?

does it really matter whether it's in F or C with a flatted B? Ignoring the tonal center issue, it's the same thing, right?

It's not quite the same thing. You tend to emphasize different notes depending on what you think the tonal center is. You play the song differently. That's why it's probably not a good idea to just ignore the tonal center issue. You might be using the same set of Lego blocks, but you put them together a little differently.

Now for the guy who's just chunking out the same chords over and over and not doing anything else, maybe it doesn't matter to him on a practical level. But to any soloist, and to a bassist, I'd think it would matter, because it would affect which of the Legos you select at a given moment and where you place them.

However, I tend to agree that we've ridden this particular horse about as hard as it needs to be ridden for now. I'm definitely repeating myself, which is probably helping no one, and several people have expressed boredom, so maybe we can zip this thing up?

 

[Phil Smith]

Originally posted by lushfreak
I was just feeling surly and amazed at how many different ways you guys seemed to be saying what is functionally the same thing. For example, if I want to get some folks together in a room to play this tune, and half of them want to play the song in F and half of them want to play the song in C with a flatted seventh, won't everything work out OK as long as everybody knows what chords to play (over)?

The only people that would want to play it in F are those people that want to play it in a different key, in which case they would play;

F7 Eb7 Bb7 F7

Which will sound different than;

C7 Bb7 F7 C7

And they may want to do this because the singer may have a better time with the song in F as opposed to C.

 

[Phil Smith]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I am getting really bored with this debate - but I will just say that - we are not talking about a Jazz tune!!

If we were, then it would all make sense, but as we are not - it doesn't!!

You're bored? Go away then, no ones asking you to post.

Jazz isn't the only music that can be subject to analysis and where rules of harmony can be applied. Keep in mind that Jazz at one time wasn't held in high esteem nor was it analyzed to the extent it is now because back then it was considered "Black People's" music.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Phil Smith


Which will sound different than;

C7 Bb7 F7 C7

But the "rule" is that the five chord is the only dominant 7th chord in a key - you have put up 3 different ones in a row - so functional harmony clearly doesn't apply here!!

If it was CMaj7 D Min7 F7 CMaj7 for example, then fine - you could determine the key and everything you have been saying would make sense - but it's not!!!

 

[Pacman]

Geez, bruce - ever play Freddie the Freeloader? It's all V7 chords, does that make it nonfunctional harmony? No. Functional harmony also implies that chords can function as other chords (e.g. IVmaj7 chords can function as I chords, etc, etc...)

 

[godoze]

I'm amazed that you've all managed to argue for 5 pages about the key of a BTO song. That is truly funny.

First, I'd like to clarify definitively that the "root" is the "first"note in a chord. Not necessarily the lowest since we can build chords in many different inversions. This is a common misconception shared by not only the uninitiated but also by some of your Ph.D's that went to less than stellar grad schools.

Now,back to the BTO. These three "chords " C-B flat -F ; are they actually "chords " in that do they include the note that characterizes them as minor or major or are they merely perfect 5ths ?

IF they lack the chord defining character note -the third in a triad - then they are no more than p5's and that;s that.


As has been argued as nauseum, the key could be f or c but I maintain that if the chords are imcomplete and lack the important chord tones then you've really just got to pick on key and live with it.

John, I'd say Freddie is nonfunctional...just kidding... how about dysfunctional ?

 

[Phil Smith]

DonZ, have you listened to the tune? Or are you just being theoretical?

 

[godoze]

about Freddie ? I was just joking around...not being serious. I do however know the tune(freddie) and play it all too often. BTO on the other hand...haven't played that in 20 yrs...