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6 String guitarists dictating the bass lines..do they get it?
- Thread starter gkella
- Start date
I have a number of my own songs that I do want to be played a certain way but even then, I'm open to suggestions. If this approach represents one song out of eight or so, I think it's perfectly acceptable. As for hotshot guitarists, they are a dime a dozen.
I'm your age and I know how things are. Beyond just age, the industry these days is such that some A&R guy is not going to see one of our shows and come chasing after us with a contract. Even when a band works its tail off, puts its music out there, and promotes the daylights out of itself (doing what record company guys used to do when we were kids) and build up a local cult following, even then no record company would jump in and spend money on them. Outfits like Clear Channel determine where the money goes and what gets played (as far as kids today know, the only two Hendrix songs in existence are Foxey Lady and Watchtower).
The bottom line is that we play for whatever we can make on the local (and hopefully, regional) circuit. We'll put together some self-produced albums and sell a couple of CDs, but that's it. (Hell, my last album sold 80K copies but I made practically nothing and nobody's ever heard of me.)
There are a lot of middle-aged presumptive rock gods out there who are still living in a dream in this regard. They do not have any stadium gigs in their future. At best, if they're hugely popular locally and have some contacts, they might warm up for a bigger band once or twice. In my opinion, they need to set their egos aside and face reality.
The Beatles did not have a lead guitarist, shredding his way through like EVH. The Who did not have a lead guitarist, just a rhythm guitarist with attitude. And a ton of successful bands did not feature guitar wonders (the Clash, NIrvana, and most bands of the 80s).
In short, lead guitarists are not as important as they think they are.
At our age, the point is to have fun and to make a little money. I don't have time for prima donnas. I doubt you do either.
I'm your age and I know how things are. Beyond just age, the industry these days is such that some A&R guy is not going to see one of our shows and come chasing after us with a contract. Even when a band works its tail off, puts its music out there, and promotes the daylights out of itself (doing what record company guys used to do when we were kids) and build up a local cult following, even then no record company would jump in and spend money on them. Outfits like Clear Channel determine where the money goes and what gets played (as far as kids today know, the only two Hendrix songs in existence are Foxey Lady and Watchtower).
The bottom line is that we play for whatever we can make on the local (and hopefully, regional) circuit. We'll put together some self-produced albums and sell a couple of CDs, but that's it. (Hell, my last album sold 80K copies but I made practically nothing and nobody's ever heard of me.)
There are a lot of middle-aged presumptive rock gods out there who are still living in a dream in this regard. They do not have any stadium gigs in their future. At best, if they're hugely popular locally and have some contacts, they might warm up for a bigger band once or twice. In my opinion, they need to set their egos aside and face reality.
The Beatles did not have a lead guitarist, shredding his way through like EVH. The Who did not have a lead guitarist, just a rhythm guitarist with attitude. And a ton of successful bands did not feature guitar wonders (the Clash, NIrvana, and most bands of the 80s).
In short, lead guitarists are not as important as they think they are.
At our age, the point is to have fun and to make a little money. I don't have time for prima donnas. I doubt you do either.
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So many defensive responses by people who don't even have any investment in the situation, and heaps of responses regarding band leadership and "kick him out". Something tells me that this isn't a very serious band where band duties are delegated and leadership is a thing. I'm thinking more of a situation like a few guys get together once a week or so and jam to some covers. I don't quite think this is the level of band where they're going to file a dispute with their manager or anything like that.
Here's a foolproof way to handle the situation and indicate who is wrong and who is right in this situation. If he says your bass parts are too complicated, stop practice and listen to the song. If you're playing the song as it's recorded, he's wrong and you get the satisfying feeling of telling him that he's wrong. If you're not and you're adding walks and bass fills to "Hey Ho" for some odd reason, you're in the wrong, stop it.
Whatever you do, don't automatically part ways with someone because of a minor dispute. At least make an attempt to get to the bottom of it. You guys are both adults and there's no reason you can't attempt to see eye to eye. If all of the facts are out in the open, and you or him still aren't budging, then obviously that's the time to part ways.
Here's a foolproof way to handle the situation and indicate who is wrong and who is right in this situation. If he says your bass parts are too complicated, stop practice and listen to the song. If you're playing the song as it's recorded, he's wrong and you get the satisfying feeling of telling him that he's wrong. If you're not and you're adding walks and bass fills to "Hey Ho" for some odd reason, you're in the wrong, stop it.
Whatever you do, don't automatically part ways with someone because of a minor dispute. At least make an attempt to get to the bottom of it. You guys are both adults and there's no reason you can't attempt to see eye to eye. If all of the facts are out in the open, and you or him still aren't budging, then obviously that's the time to part ways.
I read all of the reviews of your question. The thing that I noticed is that you have been playing 18 months.
I have been playing for over 50 years -- still trying to learn something every day,
The bass is really quite complex if you want to be a pro -- easy to learn basics -- difficult to master. For some of the music, the most basic root notes are very effective, for some, more complexity is indicated. IF you get bored playing basic root notes, you might want to re-evaluate the entire project. Listen to some of the great songs. Listen very closely -- AND, what is your band trying to do? Sound great? Recordings? Cover everybody elses music? Write? AND< how good is the guitar player? How good is the drummer? Is there a singer? KB's?
As a bass player, if the band sounds good, I am good. The bass has a LOT of influence on how the band sounds. The "basis" of the entire sound. Be a musician first.
I have been playing for over 50 years -- still trying to learn something every day,
The bass is really quite complex if you want to be a pro -- easy to learn basics -- difficult to master. For some of the music, the most basic root notes are very effective, for some, more complexity is indicated. IF you get bored playing basic root notes, you might want to re-evaluate the entire project. Listen to some of the great songs. Listen very closely -- AND, what is your band trying to do? Sound great? Recordings? Cover everybody elses music? Write? AND< how good is the guitar player? How good is the drummer? Is there a singer? KB's?
As a bass player, if the band sounds good, I am good. The bass has a LOT of influence on how the band sounds. The "basis" of the entire sound. Be a musician first.
Any thoughts..[/QUOTE]
Yeah, throw a fit yourself, and tell him to strum simple chords... sporadically. Tell him to back off a little bit from the front of the stage, and then further back and further back. When he's out the door, then say perfect.
Yeah, throw a fit yourself, and tell him to strum simple chords... sporadically. Tell him to back off a little bit from the front of the stage, and then further back and further back. When he's out the door, then say perfect.
Probably not a popular opinion, but here goes...
The songs you listed are pretty simple and they're meant to be. In particular, Brass In Pocket is all about the groove and it's the simple bass line that carries the whole song. The "colour" comes from HOW it's played. If you're playing anything more than what's on the record, your guitarist might be right. That's one song that should be played note for note.
With a few exceptions, playing covers is all about capturing the original feel of the song. Some songs should be played note for note, others are more forgiving and open for interpretation. The recording settles any argument. There's elegance in simplicity... just listen to AC/DC. Overplay it and it'll suck. Happiness is in the pocket.
Having said that, if you're looking for something more challenging, it sounds like you aren't a good fit for this band. Especially if your guitarist wants less than the recording.
The songs you listed are pretty simple and they're meant to be. In particular, Brass In Pocket is all about the groove and it's the simple bass line that carries the whole song. The "colour" comes from HOW it's played. If you're playing anything more than what's on the record, your guitarist might be right. That's one song that should be played note for note.
With a few exceptions, playing covers is all about capturing the original feel of the song. Some songs should be played note for note, others are more forgiving and open for interpretation. The recording settles any argument. There's elegance in simplicity... just listen to AC/DC. Overplay it and it'll suck. Happiness is in the pocket.
Having said that, if you're looking for something more challenging, it sounds like you aren't a good fit for this band. Especially if your guitarist wants less than the recording.
Life is too short to be unhappy. Some folks love to crack the whip on ANYONE and EVERYONE. There are a LOT of bands where the members play the same music and play music for the same reasons that you are. I personally would walk away. Driving home from a practice or a gig and feeling GREAT about what you did is the most important thing. Driving to anything to do with the band and feeling bad before you even get there is not doing anybody good. All my best and happy turkey day.
Apparently your guitarist is one of those truly misguided and arrogant musicians(?) who think because a reqular bass has two fewer strings it must be an easier instrument to play. This nonsense has always REALLY bothered me. There is no understanding on the guitarist's part that bass is a totally different instrument. I suggest you show up with a six-string, any fretless, or an upright and say, "Here you go. Now play!" That should shut him up in a hurry.
This reminds me of something that happened with a band I was with a while back. The guitarist was badgering me about misplaying the baseline and chord structure. He a shoulder back with me that hiolds pedals, strings and various bass things. On this particular occasion I happened to have the music for the song in question in my bag. "Here", I said as I handed the guitarist the sheet. He blanched and said "You can read this?" I looked at him and said, "Of course. Are you saying you can't?" Needless to say, he immediately shut up.
As for overplaying, a serious, competent musician plays what he feels given the chordal and rhythm structure of the tune.
Of course, I have been accused of overplaying. I've been a bassist for nearly 50 years and have never been able to play "in the pocket" for en entire song. I refer to Jack Casady as a model bassist. He weaves in and out of the "pocket" playing with scales and adding grace notes as he feels them. I am, of course, no Jack Casady, though his playing, along with Jack Bruce's have pretty much defined my approach to the instrument. Now finding other musicians who understand and share thus approach is the incredibly hard part.
Thanks for reading. Comment at will...
S
You could just jam with your drummer on the side and help each other grow, have fun and let loose. Sometimes I wasn't happy with the songs I had to play in bands and I would get together with other members 1 on 1 for side projects. Everyone has their own style and some folks just wanna stick to root notes, it's good practice being in a band but it sounds like he's holding you back. Eno realized it was time to leave Roxy Music when he thought more about doing his laundry than focusing on the music during their sets.
Guitarists forget that there are an unlimited amount of people to replace them and sound as good or better. Not so with the bottom end. Great bassists are much fewer and harder to find.
We have a strapline on gambling ads in the UK - when the fun stops, stop!
That said, avoid overcomplicating songs for the sake of it. It may also be, if you are a relatively new player, that you are trying to play beyond your ability to keep good time and this is their gentle way of asking you to focus on your job.
We can't all be Billy Sheehan, sometimes what matters is most is being able to get in the groove with the drummer, and then the two of you can pull that band wherever you want to go without having to shred
That said, avoid overcomplicating songs for the sake of it. It may also be, if you are a relatively new player, that you are trying to play beyond your ability to keep good time and this is their gentle way of asking you to focus on your job.
We can't all be Billy Sheehan, sometimes what matters is most is being able to get in the groove with the drummer, and then the two of you can pull that band wherever you want to go without having to shred
Maybe you need to just jam or vamp on some parts so you can open it up and air it out a little. You might suggest that. It always surprises me how often I come up with something cool, complicate the hell out of it, then come back to the original ‘part’ with a better understanding of the vibe and feel. If you’re sticking to the original arrangements, you never get to make these discoveries for yourself. Might fix some communication issues you’re having and (god forbid) be fun.
Well said!
I've never played in anything but weekend cover bands, but the ones which were the best were the ones where the guitar player focused on the songs, not the 'lead.' Most of the lead players were also bass players, or had been at some point, and all of them were amazing rhythm guitarists.
FWIW, I've been lead guitar in quite a few bands, and without a doubt a strong drum/bass/rhythm guitar backbone is WAY more important than whatever the guy playing lead is doing.
- If it's a paying gig, I do whatever I'm told.
- If the request comes from the bandleader or founding member, I generally listen to what they say.
- If it's an original song, I follow the songwriter's vision.
- If the suggestion comes from a musician more experienced than myself, I give it serious consideration (for my benefit).
- If the suggestion comes from a musician less experienced than myself, I give it serious consideration (for their benefit).
- If it's a gathering of equals, making music for fun, in a casual environment, I politely say something like: "I'm just here to have a good time and try new musical ideas. Since we don't have any upcoming gigs this month, our parts don't need to be set in stone."
Few really good posts here.
I think, if you are playing it like the record, with the same feel and notes, then you should not have a problem.
Its easy to think you are playing it like the record but not really playing it like the record. Learning a bass-line note for note, rhythm for rhythm, feel for feel is really difficult - but incredibly rewarding. Its not restrictive, its actually a joy because you are learning from the greats. And it takes a long time to learn to play someone else's bass line properly.
I generally play in original bands and make my own bass lines, but when I play a cover, I like to play it EXACT - because you learn so much. Only after I have completely mastered the original do I dare put my own interpretation on it.
If you are playing it EXACTLY note for note (and another set of ears has verified this is the case), and he still has a problem - then he is just power tripping and you deserve much better treatment than that.
I think, if you are playing it like the record, with the same feel and notes, then you should not have a problem.
Its easy to think you are playing it like the record but not really playing it like the record. Learning a bass-line note for note, rhythm for rhythm, feel for feel is really difficult - but incredibly rewarding. Its not restrictive, its actually a joy because you are learning from the greats. And it takes a long time to learn to play someone else's bass line properly.
I generally play in original bands and make my own bass lines, but when I play a cover, I like to play it EXACT - because you learn so much. Only after I have completely mastered the original do I dare put my own interpretation on it.
If you are playing it EXACTLY note for note (and another set of ears has verified this is the case), and he still has a problem - then he is just power tripping and you deserve much better treatment than that.
Guitar players are a dime a dozen, which is why I switched to bas over 40 years ago. If it’s the guitarist music, I’d try to persuade him to see the value of what you’re playing. But if you’re just doing cover tunes, I’d tell him to pound sand.
That is what the people expect, even from the original bands on tour, because they get bored playing the same thing and when they start to screw around with things it becomes a disappointment. The Eagles were a great example in this regard. They knew that people might wait for years to see them and when they did, they should hear the songs exactly as they remember them. The audience are the ones who put food on the table for the stars. Professionals like the Eagles knew this. Besides, they busted their tails to make the songs right in the first place - polishing like hell until things were perfect and then recording. To get lazy on tour is awful (Think of the last couple of Stones tours. They were playing absolute crap.)
My only problem is that some of the really fun songs to play note for note, oldies such as I've Seen All Good People, never make it into a set list.
Sounds to me like he wants you to be "true" to the hit-record version. And there's nothing wrong with that, if he and the rest of the band are doing the same thing. But if any of you are playing anything different -- making the songs your own distinctive versions -- then I think the guitarist is wrong to expect you to stick to the "famous" version.
If any of you write original music, use them to show what you can do. You might win the rest of the band over to your side.
