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90 miles for $200.00? Reasonable?

This is one of those threads with so many things said (by the op and others) that are simply beyond comprehension.

You're worried about falling asleep so you're going to take an ambien and get a hotel room for 4 or 5 hours?

Or you're going to stop for a nap "every 30 minutes"?

You fall asleep on a simple 2 hour drive but are "healthier than the average 50 year old"?

90 miles isn’t long distance
If I've learned anything from reading this thread, it's that there are a LOT of lightweight, sorta/wannabe "occasionally working" musicians out here that are more worried about how much doing an occasional out-of-the-ordinary gig (I.E. driving a few additional miles to get to the gig) is going to theoretically cost them in cash, miles on their vehicle, lost sleep, their health (seriously?), on and on and on, than I would have believed. Interesting...

If you're in a "working weekend warrior" band (defined for this discussion as gigging at least a couple times a month on a fairly regular basis) you're doing it first and foremost for love of performing (and as a weekend warrior musician, what other reason is there, really? Damn sure ain't for the money), and accepting the issues and conditions that often go with that are IMO the unspoken part of the deal we as musicians readily accept because we know that just goes with the territory and is the nature of the beast. If that's not really you, and your personal requirements are that high (and your health so poor) that you're unable to man up enough and accept some adjustments to make it work, then IMO you're simply not really all that interested in gigging. $200 a night may or may not be enough here for some and that's fine, your call. I think most weekend warriors types (if that's what you are, again as defined for this discussion) would drive 90 miles every freaking weekend for a $200 evening of playing good music with good fellow musicians. I damn sure would.
 
Like I already said, I factored in a reasonable if not liberal cost (based on actual numbers) for insurance, maintenance, repairs (which by the way don't cost you anything if you don't actually need to do them), etc...

My van I've put about 40k on it in about 18 months (which is abnormally high for me, I had some longer trips in there, and a longer than average commute for most of it). It's a honda. If I wanted, I could probably get 300k out of it (it's about halfway there). But I'll probably keep it for about another 40 or so, and sell it running for about 3/4 of what I paid for it (somehow you never mentioned resale, mr accountant expert man). I don't buy anything if I don't expect to get at least 2 or 3 years and 40-50k miles out of it. Even if you drive it into the ground, you can get a few hundred bucks scrapping it.

But even with a new car, if you figure a $20k car should last 200k miles, you're essentially paying 10 cents a mile just to have the car. That brand new 2018 car is likely getting 30+ mpg. Gas prices (at least around the north east) are in the upper half of $2-3/gallon. So that's another 10 cents per mile. Oil change every 3k at $60 (if you go with the regular it's probably half that) is about 1/2 a cent per mile. Insurance if you don't crash into everything is maybe another 5 cents per mile. Average in another 5 cents a mile for repairs and other maintenance (ie $10k over the life of the car), and you're still at only 30 cents per mile of actual costs. Anything above that is just ERASING the costs. Which is to say that at around 60 cents a mile, you would be completely erasing the entire cost of a reasonably priced new car.

But a car is not really an "investment" in most cases, it's simply a cost (just like toilet paper is not an "investment"). So most people do not need or expect their personal car to pay for itself. So any amount that it does is gravy.

So the guy's actual costs for driving himself to the gig around $30 (assuming no tolls or other funny business). So that leaves $170 for actual gig pay. For 10 hours of playing, setting up, driving, etc... that yields about 17 bucks an hour. Or just taking into account 3 hours of performance time, $57 an hour. Maybe not great in terms of what's possible, but not horrible by any standards.

As far as the difference between reimbursement and deduction, just the nature of the entertainment business is that most or many things are under the table. Since this is a private party, I kind of doubt anything is going to be on the books. So it's really more like you're making $200 PLUS whatever your tax rate would be. In other words, if your tax rate is 20%, it's like making $250. Now, that's just hypothetical and you totally shouldn't do that *wink* but it shows another way of looking at the rate of pay and what's really worth and what the gig actually costs.

Now, if you feel it's absolutely necessary to get a hotel room (personally I would think nothing of just parking outside the party and racking out for 2 hours if I thought I needed to before driving home), then that blows your whole profit margin to hell, unless you're at least able to share it with someone else and find a pretty cheap one.

Besides that, most people for most gigs, don't even really factor in the cost of getting to and from. Most people would not think twice about driving 50 miles round trip for a gig. And probably not be counting their pennies of "oh, how much did my insurance cost for that, etc...?". So that cost of maybe $6 in gas and an hour of time is considered a given. So if you take that out of the OPs situation, you end up looking at closer to $20 an hour, so really the difference between this gig and a local one is about $3 an hour when it's all said and done. That's probably not a huge deal to most people. And for that local gig, you might still only get paid $100 or $150, and actually be making less per hour. If you consistently gig locally for 200 bucks, then that rate should have been added to during the negotiation process for the gig. So "our normal rate is $200 per person, we're going to need another $50 per person for travel for this one" (leaving room to negotiate down a bit if needed). In the end the negotiated price really depends on how "desperate" the band is for the work, and how much the client wants your specific band is willing to pay for that. In this case, the BL should have run the initial offer past the band for input before agreeing to a price.
 
Like I already said, I factored in a reasonable if not liberal cost (based on actual numbers) for insurance, maintenance, repairs (which by the way don't cost you anything if you don't actually need to do them), etc...

My van I've put about 40k on it in about 18 months (which is abnormally high for me, I had some longer trips in there, and a longer than average commute for most of it). It's a honda. If I wanted, I could probably get 300k out of it (it's about halfway there). But I'll probably keep it for about another 40 or so, and sell it running for about 3/4 of what I paid for it (somehow you never mentioned resale, mr accountant expert man). I don't buy anything if I don't expect to get at least 2 or 3 years and 40-50k miles out of it. Even if you drive it into the ground, you can get a few hundred bucks scrapping it.

But even with a new car, if you figure a $20k car should last 200k miles, you're essentially paying 10 cents a mile just to have the car. That brand new 2018 car is likely getting 30+ mpg. Gas prices (at least around the north east) are in the upper half of $2-3/gallon. So that's another 10 cents per mile. Oil change every 3k at $60 (if you go with the regular it's probably half that) is about 1/2 a cent per mile. Insurance if you don't crash into everything is maybe another 5 cents per mile. Average in another 5 cents a mile for repairs and other maintenance (ie $10k over the life of the car), and you're still at only 30 cents per mile of actual costs. Anything above that is just ERASING the costs. Which is to say that at around 60 cents a mile, you would be completely erasing the entire cost of a reasonably priced new car.

But a car is not really an "investment" in most cases, it's simply a cost (just like toilet paper is not an "investment"). So most people do not need or expect their personal car to pay for itself. So any amount that it does is gravy.

So the guy's actual costs for driving himself to the gig around $30 (assuming no tolls or other funny business). So that leaves $170 for actual gig pay. For 10 hours of playing, setting up, driving, etc... that yields about 17 bucks an hour. Or just taking into account 3 hours of performance time, $57 an hour. Maybe not great in terms of what's possible, but not horrible by any standards.

As far as the difference between reimbursement and deduction, just the nature of the entertainment business is that most or many things are under the table. Since this is a private party, I kind of doubt anything is going to be on the books. So it's really more like you're making $200 PLUS whatever your tax rate would be. In other words, if your tax rate is 20%, it's like making $250. Now, that's just hypothetical and you totally shouldn't do that *wink* but it shows another way of looking at the rate of pay and what's really worth and what the gig actually costs.

Now, if you feel it's absolutely necessary to get a hotel room (personally I would think nothing of just parking outside the party and racking out for 2 hours if I thought I needed to before driving home), then that blows your whole profit margin to hell, unless you're at least able to share it with someone else and find a pretty cheap one.

Besides that, most people for most gigs, don't even really factor in the cost of getting to and from. Most people would not think twice about driving 50 miles round trip for a gig. And probably not be counting their pennies of "oh, how much did my insurance cost for that, etc...?". So that cost of maybe $6 in gas and an hour of time is considered a given. So if you take that out of the OPs situation, you end up looking at closer to $20 an hour, so really the difference between this gig and a local one is about $3 an hour when it's all said and done. That's probably not a huge deal to most people. And for that local gig, you might still only get paid $100 or $150, and actually be making less per hour. If you consistently gig locally for 200 bucks, then that rate should have been added to during the negotiation process for the gig. So "our normal rate is $200 per person, we're going to need another $50 per person for travel for this one" (leaving room to negotiate down a bit if needed). In the end the negotiated price really depends on how "desperate" the band is for the work, and how much the client wants your specific band is willing to pay for that. In this case, the BL should have run the initial offer past the band for input before agreeing to a price.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rollno:
 
I
Depends, is it decent or indecent?

Technically you can only deduct the expenses if this gig is issuing a 1099. Which I doubt it is. But I could be wrong. And Im sure that hasn’t stopped anyone before.
it is my understanding you do not have to recieve a 1099, to claim expenses. Just keep records in my state you have to pay gross reciepts. This gig sounds like bass player is a hired gun and not a regular partner in the band. This fun thing we call music can get complex really fast:D
 
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Like I already said, I factored in a reasonable if not liberal cost (based on actual numbers) for insurance, maintenance, repairs (which by the way don't cost you anything if you don't actually need to do them), etc...

My van I've put about 40k on it in about 18 months (which is abnormally high for me, I had some longer trips in there, and a longer than average commute for most of it). It's a honda. If I wanted, I could probably get 300k out of it (it's about halfway there). But I'll probably keep it for about another 40 or so, and sell it running for about 3/4 of what I paid for it (somehow you never mentioned resale, mr accountant expert man). I don't buy anything if I don't expect to get at least 2 or 3 years and 40-50k miles out of it. Even if you drive it into the ground, you can get a few hundred bucks scrapping it.

But even with a new car, if you figure a $20k car should last 200k miles, you're essentially paying 10 cents a mile just to have the car. That brand new 2018 car is likely getting 30+ mpg. Gas prices (at least around the north east) are in the upper half of $2-3/gallon. So that's another 10 cents per mile. Oil change every 3k at $60 (if you go with the regular it's probably half that) is about 1/2 a cent per mile. Insurance if you don't crash into everything is maybe another 5 cents per mile. Average in another 5 cents a mile for repairs and other maintenance (ie $10k over the life of the car), and you're still at only 30 cents per mile of actual costs. Anything above that is just ERASING the costs. Which is to say that at around 60 cents a mile, you would be completely erasing the entire cost of a reasonably priced new car.

But a car is not really an "investment" in most cases, it's simply a cost (just like toilet paper is not an "investment"). So most people do not need or expect their personal car to pay for itself. So any amount that it does is gravy.

So the guy's actual costs for driving himself to the gig around $30 (assuming no tolls or other funny business). So that leaves $170 for actual gig pay. For 10 hours of playing, setting up, driving, etc... that yields about 17 bucks an hour. Or just taking into account 3 hours of performance time, $57 an hour. Maybe not great in terms of what's possible, but not horrible by any standards.

As far as the difference between reimbursement and deduction, just the nature of the entertainment business is that most or many things are under the table. Since this is a private party, I kind of doubt anything is going to be on the books. So it's really more like you're making $200 PLUS whatever your tax rate would be. In other words, if your tax rate is 20%, it's like making $250. Now, that's just hypothetical and you totally shouldn't do that *wink* but it shows another way of looking at the rate of pay and what's really worth and what the gig actually costs.

Now, if you feel it's absolutely necessary to get a hotel room (personally I would think nothing of just parking outside the party and racking out for 2 hours if I thought I needed to before driving home), then that blows your whole profit margin to hell, unless you're at least able to share it with someone else and find a pretty cheap one.

Besides that, most people for most gigs, don't even really factor in the cost of getting to and from. Most people would not think twice about driving 50 miles round trip for a gig. And probably not be counting their pennies of "oh, how much did my insurance cost for that, etc...?". So that cost of maybe $6 in gas and an hour of time is considered a given. So if you take that out of the OPs situation, you end up looking at closer to $20 an hour, so really the difference between this gig and a local one is about $3 an hour when it's all said and done. That's probably not a huge deal to most people. And for that local gig, you might still only get paid $100 or $150, and actually be making less per hour. If you consistently gig locally for 200 bucks, then that rate should have been added to during the negotiation process for the gig. So "our normal rate is $200 per person, we're going to need another $50 per person for travel for this one" (leaving room to negotiate down a bit if needed). In the end the negotiated price really depends on how "desperate" the band is for the work, and how much the client wants your specific band is willing to pay for that. In this case, the BL should have run the initial offer past the band for input before agreeing to a price.
vans have different deprecation Schudules than cars
 
I
it is my understanding you do not have to recieve a 1099, to claim expenses. Just keep records in my state you have to pay gross reciepts. This gig sounds like bass player is a hired gun and not a regular partner in the band. This fun thing we call music can get complex really fast:D

No I'm a regular partner. New guy, but regular.

In any case B.L called it off. Too difficult to coordinate and I also pointed out the mileage cost which I don't think anyone factored in and he realized at that point he quoted to low a price
 
Still a nope for me.
I hear all the yeah do it for fun.... dont play for fun and giggles no more
Do it for the exposure of live audience.... nope been there also.
My advice get your craft up and require a certain amount ANYTIME YOU ARE REQUESTED.... regardless of distance.
You'll thank me later
 
There seems to be a few camps of players just saying what they would do. And we don't really know what camp you're in just yet:

A) Working Musicians who will take any work they can get; if it's simply down to either working or not working: Make The Money

B) Those who are still used to the musical minimum wage of $100/gig, who would gladly take a $200 gig.

C) Working Musicians who have grown accustomed to making a fair wage for their craft, place a slightly higher value on their time, and have the option to turn down work that isn't really worth it for them.

D) Hobbyists who are more proned to pick and choose gigs based on what would be "worthwhile" in their own personal sense.


I fall somewhere between A and C.

Currently I'm very used to making at least $200 a gig (though that doesn't mean I always do). Most weekend gigs yield more than that. Weddings are typically a premium, as are various other gigs.

I also drive a lot, but rarely too far (unless I'm going on a road trip for fun). Lots of 75-120 hour drives from Philly to various shore points. I'm also fairly young and enjoy driving.

At the end of the day, I expect to at least make "decent" money, and I'm extremely fortunate that I currently do.

HOWEVER, I don't forget where I came from, and work is work. Sometimes you gotta hustle.

But there also comes a time where you need to start prioritizing your time/needs and to begin placing greater value on your time/needs.

It's a fleeting spectrum at best, and it all really depends on what your needs are. Not all gigs are about the money. There's a level of "musical nirvana" that is rarely achieved on a typical cover gig, and I'll gladly play for free if it means that type of experience. On the other hand, sometimes I'm simply too worn out to squeeze in extra work and I need to rest whenever I can.

Ideally, you've simply learned to develop a solid instinct that helps you make decisions, even when things seem uncertain, that thing inside you will know.

I'd probably take the gig haha.



Edit: Then again it depends haha. If it's a season where I'm up to my neck in work and along comes this willy nilly gig that may or may not pay out, that doesn't have a clear beginning and end time, that seems like a potentially unprofessional mess, I might be too grumpy and impatient and just pass and choose to spend my time doing something more productive, like sleeping.

Or if it's during an off season, and I'm game for an adventure? Hell, screw it, let's see what happens.
All that being said Roddy.... it would still be a no for me when i can get that.... regularly 15 mins from my house.
I have NO MORE dues to pay!
My axe has been supporting me and a family and a child now in college since 2000... 200 for 90 miles hell no.....
Ive had flights paid, hotel and per diem given at the airport plus more than 200 night when rolling.
I drove from philly to bethlehem pa for a hotel and 45 mins(500.00) so aint no way in heckll im driving 2hrs for 200.00
 
age? health?

i make the 2 hour trip between two cities regularly (125+ miles, and sometimes i'm toting a bulky 10,000 watt PA) in order to play gigs/music. i don't see this as a 'biggie'. we obviously have a different POV* on gigging/playing.
That's a pretty standard "commute" around here. I know sometimes the drive home can be alarming, especially with all the deer I have to look out for. But I guess it just comes with the turf. YMMV
 
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Gig came up thats 90 miles (about 1 hour 40 minutes from me) and will pay $200.00.

Details overall are sketchy/non-existant but so far the B.L. that sets these things up hasn't led us into anything thats been truly bad. It's supposed to pay $200.00 per person.

Is that reasonable? I've driven as far or further for less in the past but these days I try to keep those long distance gigs to a minimum, mainly because I have trouble staying awake on the drive home...That basically means stopping every 30 minutes or so to nap, or worst case getting a motel room, taking an Ambien and sleeping for 4-5 hours in a real bed.

In what part of Pennsylvania do you live? Here in west central PA, it's tough to get $200 a man unless it's a festival or special event and driving up to 2 hours each way and hauling a P.A. is normal.
 
In what part of Pennsylvania do you live? Here in west central PA, it's tough to get $200 a man unless it's a festival or special event and driving up to 2 hours each way and hauling a P.A. is normal.
Im in philadelphia... elkins park actually.
Play mostly gospel. No clubs. Bars. Garage band stuff either. But do play festivals in and out off country .
Been playing pro for years so when not touring ive been around long enough that other pro set ups call
 
In what part of Pennsylvania do you live? Here in west central PA, it's tough to get $200 a man unless it's a festival or special event and driving up to 2 hours each way and hauling a P.A. is normal.


Bucks County...

AS pointed out earlier, once mileage and tolls are factored in we would have all netted less than $100.00, and I know for a fact the one guitar player wasn't down with that.
 
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All that being said Roddy.... it would still be a no for me when i can get that.... regularly 15 mins from my house.
I have NO MORE dues to pay!
My axe has been supporting me and a family and a child now in college since 2000... 200 for 90 miles hell no.....
Ive had flights paid, hotel and per diem given at the airport plus more than 200 night when rolling.
I drove from philly to bethlehem pa for a hotel and 45 mins(500.00) so aint no way in heckll im driving 2hrs for 200.00

So I guess that would put you somewhere around group C :D