A Couple of Envelope Filter Questions

[fivestringgecko]

Like Johno, I'm also a filter junkie. Owned or tried a LOT so far (38-ish standalone filters, quite a few more if modelers are included... Zoom B3, Line 6 M5, and Helix). And the Spectrum doesn't really count as "one" filter I think. ha!

I'll echo others that the Spectrum is a filter package that's almost impossible to beat. Pretty much any envelope sound you could ever want. And even if you don't want to dig in and program your own sounds, there's a library of sounds available with the Neuro Community. (But another +1... If you go this route, consider dropping just a little extra $ for the C4, and you'd be able to do envelope filter sounds AND synth.)

On the standalone side, don't let a filter not having a output/volume control throw you off. A slight volume bump isn't necessarily a bad thing with a filter, because they sweep through/change the frequencies that get bass guitar most heard in a mix. What's perceived as unity volume at home by itself can sometimes disappear in a live mix setting. (the old adage: "What sounds good at home won't always work in a mix.")

I don't know of many good filters that don't have some form of input control. It's not usually called "Gain" that often though, it's more often called Sensitivity, but could also be Threshold, Peak, Input, etc... When in doubt, check the user manuals to see what the controls do.

The Zoom B3/MS60b filters* are okay, but the truth is that they're in a budget friendly multi-fx unit, so you get "budget friendly" models. Standalone filters will win here in terms of sound. That said, the Auto Filter in the Helix is outstanding... one of my top 3 fav filters. But Line 6 has been very serious about their models in that platform and it's reflected in the price of the units by comparison to the Zoom.

*same effect models, just different hardware format

- The Aguilar Filter Twin is quite nice... it's a little bit more unique in that it can do both up and down Filter sounds at the same time.
- MXR's Bass Envelope Filter is also good, but more on the brighter Mutron "quacky" filter side.
- Also check out 3Leaf... I've owned the Groove Regulator, GR2, Proton V1/V2/V3. All VERY good juicy analog filters
- Some of the higher end Electro Harmonix filters are worth a look as well, but I've always experienced more signal noise with EHX... YMMV of course.
- Probably the most unique is the Pigtronix Bass Envelope Filter. Fat and juicy with the combined filter and phaser, my top fav of all filters I've tried... One of only a couple pedals I've ever bought a backup for. Discontinued, but worth checking the used market.

5sg.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

Seriously...go get a Source Audio Spectrum. It'll be the last filter you will ever need or buy.

You should seriously get SA to sponsor you a few $$.
Or at the very least they should give you some major props for promoting SA.

(Not a diss at all, I just think you’re a very devoted user of SA products)

 

[HolmeBass]

I've never used a Spectrum but I'm imagine its great. I HATE using a computer and software for effects though. As an analog suggestion my vote goes to finding a Wonderlove, its a vintage funk machine and has a boost control to adjust volume. Its the best EF in my opinion.

I was able to modify the Spectrum’s built in patches and save my edits just with the unit’s UI. It was not “easy” but it also wasn’t really hard.

Of course the computer setup let’s you create any patch you want from scratch, and is obviously the more powerful interface. I couldn’t install the application so I had to use the unit’s UI to dial in the patches.

 

[jdh3000]

Like Johno, I'm also a filter junkie. Owned or tried a LOT so far (38-ish standalone filters, quite a few more if modelers are included... Zoom B3, Line 6 M5, and Helix). And the Spectrum doesn't really count as "one" filter I think. ha!

I'll echo others that the Spectrum is a filter package that's almost impossible to beat. Pretty much any envelope sound you could ever want. And even if you don't want to dig in and program your own sounds, there's a library of sounds available with the Neuro Community. (But another +1... If you go this route, consider dropping just a little extra $ for the C4, and you'd be able to do envelope filter sounds AND synth.)

On the standalone side, don't let a filter not having a output/volume control throw you off. A slight volume bump isn't necessarily a bad thing with a filter, because they sweep through/change the frequencies that get bass guitar most heard in a mix. What's perceived as unity volume at home by itself can sometimes disappear in a live mix setting. (the old adage: "What sounds good at home won't always work in a mix.")

I don't know of many good filters that don't have some form of input control. It's not usually called "Gain" that often though, it's more often called Sensitivity, but could also be Threshold, Peak, Input, etc... When in doubt, check the user manuals to see what the controls do.

The Zoom B3/MS60b filters* are okay, but the truth is that they're in a budget friendly multi-fx unit, so you get "budget friendly" models. Standalone filters will win here in terms of sound. That said, the Auto Filter in the Helix is outstanding... one of my top 3 fav filters. But Line 6 has been very serious about their models in that platform and it's reflected in the price of the units by comparison to the Zoom.

*same effect models, just different hardware format

- The Aguilar Filter Twin is quite nice... it's a little bit more unique in that it can do both up and down Filter sounds at the same time.
- MXR's Bass Envelope Filter is also good, but more on the brighter Mutron "quacky" filter side.
- Also check out 3Leaf... I've owned the Groove Regulator, GR2, Proton V1/V2/V3. All VERY good juicy analog filters
- Some of the higher end Electro Harmonix filters are worth a look as well, but I've always experienced more signal noise with EHX... YMMV of course.
- Probably the most unique is the Pigtronix Bass Envelope Filter. Fat and juicy with the combined filter and phaser, my top fav of all filters I've tried... One of only a couple pedals I've ever bought a backup for. Discontinued, but worth checking the used market.

5sg.

Yea I was just wanting to even it up a bit with the bypass signal. I may need that extra volume to compensate for the frequency flux, but somehow not being able to control the volume if a pedal troubles me.

I have eztra boost pedals if it needs more. just nothing to bring it down if needed, except the zoom which could be set up thar way.

Besides I really didn't want any extra pedals.

Yes, effects can sound loud and wild at home but get lost in a mix.

Thanks for all the recommendations!

 

[HolmeBass]

Yea I was just wanting to even it up a bit with the bypass signal. I may need that extra volume to compensate for the frequency flux, but somehow not being able to control the volume if a pedal troubles me.

I have eztra boost pedals if it needs more. just nothing to bring it down if needed, except the zoom which could be set up thar way.

Besides I really didn't want any extra pedals.

Yes, effects can sound loud and wild at home but get lost in a mix.

Thanks for all the recommendations!

The Spectrum has an input volume, which acts like a sensitivity control on most EFs but like the old MuTrons it also ups your gain. They have a procedure for dialing in the sweet spot for the envelope follower. Then an output volume to trim/boost as needed. You can set the spectrum’s volume exactly where you want it.

 

[fivestringgecko]

Yea I was just wanting to even it up a bit with the bypass signal. I may need that extra volume to compensate for the frequency flux, but somehow not being able to control the volume if a pedal troubles me.

It can certainly be a little unsettling at first, and I very much share your distaste for having to buy a 2nd pedal to fix a problem. If you can get past not having an output volume control (which is fairly rare on a filter pedal), I think you'll find you'll be okay. I was on the same path as you when I first started exploring envelope filters, and when I had on/off unity volume at home, I always found myself wishing for a little bit more engaged volume in the mix... I was struggling to be heard.

It also depends on what you want... Envelope can be a really cool subtle effect for always on funk, or it can be in-your-face attitude. Envelope filters are very much like overdrives in that they all have they're own personalities and quirks, and it might take some exploration on your part to find one that you really vibe with.

If you're 100% dead set on having a volume output control, you'll probably either need to get that 2nd "fixer" pedal or need to go the digital route, like the Spectrum or sticking with your Zoom. Envelope filters with a blend somewhat solve the problem, but also lose some of the vibe of what an envelope filter actually does since the blend just mixes in dry signal.

Good luck in your search, let us know where you land!

5sg.

 

[SaucyJackBass]

I'm a fan of the the Aguilar Twin Filter myself.

 

[jdh3000]

It can certainly be a little unsettling at first, and I very much share your distaste for having to buy a 2nd pedal to fix a problem. If you can get past not having an output volume control (which is fairly rare on a filter pedal), I think you'll find you'll be okay. I was on the same path as you when I first started exploring envelope filters, and when I had on/off unity volume at home, I always found myself wishing for a little bit more engaged volume in the mix... I was struggling to be heard.

It also depends on what you want... Envelope can be a really cool subtle effect for always on funk, or it can be in-your-face attitude. Envelope filters are very much like overdrives in that they all have they're own personalities and quirks, and it might take some exploration on your part to find one that you really vibe with.

If you're 100% dead set on having a volume output control, you'll probably either need to get that 2nd "fixer" pedal or need to go the digital route, like the Spectrum or sticking with your Zoom. Envelope filters with a blend somewhat solve the problem, but also lose some of the vibe of what an envelope filter actually does since the blend just mixes in dry signal.

Good luck in your search, let us know where you land!

5sg.

Thank you! I'm thinking about if I fet one without a level control placing in the side loop with the Boss LS-2, and just switching to that.
I was using that side for funk/slap stuff anyway. That line has an MXR M81 preamp I can set it up for the envelope. I can add an extra spark boost I have if I to kick up one way or the other.

I will post whichever I way I go.

I'm a fan of the the Aguilar Twin Filter myself.

I've been reading good things about the Aguilar and listening to demos.

 

[jdh3000]

I picked up the MXR M82 today. I haven't gotten a chance to play with it too much but what little time I did get to work with it, it seems pretty easy to dial in a good sound.

It has the blend control which I like as I like a lot of the original bass tone there to cut through in a mix. Only getting it on a gig will tell what it will do there.

I think I have a work around for the volume issue. It has a little but of a boost with dry and fx at noon, and pulls down from there, so too much shouldn't be an issue...

I'm going to route it through the Boss LS-2, and use a comp to tame the spikes there.

I have a boost pedal I can add if I feel I may need extra volume. I didn't want to crowd up my board anymore but it won't be that much, at least I won't have to buy anything new.

If it works out, great...if not I will spend a little more and get the Spectrum.
I almost went that direction but I thought I'd give this one a shot.

 

[fivestringgecko]

Congrats on the M82, it's a good envelope filter!

I'm wondering if you might be overthinking things a bit though...?

I think I have a work around for the volume issue. It has a little but of a boost with dry and fx at noon, and pulls down from there, so too much shouldn't be an issue...

I have a boost pedal I can add if I feel I may need extra volume. I didn't want to crowd up my board anymore but it won't be that much, at least I won't have to buy anything new.

That's exactly what the Dry and FX knobs are designed for... you can cut or boost volume for both separately, to your personal taste. One of the nice things about this pedal, for sure.

I'd be pretty surprised if you'll feel a need more volume boost than the MXR provides... The Dry/FX knobs should have plenty on tap for you. Just beware that if you're running your M82 into the comp, boosting the volume on the M82 will most likely require some changes to the Comp settings.

I'm going to route it through the Boss LS-2, and use a comp to tame the spikes there.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your goal with the LS2, the only two settings on the LS2 that would get the comp and filter working together is the A>B (which runs the signal from both pedals in series), or A+B which I believe runs them in parallel... meaning it would just mix the filtered signal with the compressor, which would just be on the dry bass signal. compressing the filter can easily be done by just running the M82 into the Comp. That'll be the same as the A>B setting on the LS2, which would let you use the pedalboard space for the LS2 for some other goodie.

Pedal order is always a personal taste thing of course, but I've always found that I enjoy filters more with the Comp before the filter. This way, the signal is balanced out a bit before it hits the filter, which does help tame the filter (because the signal is already better balanced before it gets there), but it also helps the filter feel a bit more musical. Comp after always had me feeling like I was fighting to get the filter to do what I want, because it's being restricted by the comp. YMMV of course!

5sg.

 

[jdh3000]

Congrats on the M82, it's a good envelope filter!

I'm wondering if you might be overthinking things a bit though...?

Thank you! Yes, I do tend to overthink things, lol!

That's exactly what the Dry and FX knobs are designed for... you can cut or boost volume for both separately, to your personal taste. One of the nice things about this pedal, for sure.

I really only got a little chance to mess with it. I could tell it was cutting the imput on both the dry and the fx. I just couldn't really tell how much.

I'd be pretty surprised if you'll feel a need more volume boost than the MXR provides... The Dry/FX knobs should have plenty on tap for you. Just beware that if you're running your M82 into the comp, boosting the volume on the M82 will most likely require some changes to the Comp settings.

Sounds like those knobs should fix it evenly with the bypassed volume, that's always a concern for me.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your goal with the LS2, the only two settings on the LS2 that would get the comp and filter working together is the A>B (which runs the signal from both pedals in series), or A+B which I believe runs them in parallel... meaning it would just mix the filtered signal with the compressor, which would just be on the dry bass signal. compressing the filter can easily be done by just running the M82 into the Comp. That'll be the same as the A>B setting on the LS2, which would let you use the pedalboard space for the LS2 for some other goodie.

I'm running two lines, switching A/B lines with the LS-2. I'm sorry, when writing about it I see it in my mind but forget that it does blend and other routing that I don't use.

I have the A line for my main bass sound. It runs a separate preamp and a light comp with a keeley bassist.

The B side is the side I use for slap and funk. I use a heavier MXR M87 compressor and an MXR M81 pre, mainly because the comp needs a little extra push with passive bases, there's also a little tone shaping there.

This is where I would be placing the M82, between the preamp and the comp.
Now before I WAS running the zoom ms60b EF there right after the comp and it worked ok, but I had read the the M82 was real spikey and needed to be put before the compressor, but I was going to experiment some.

Pedal order is always a personal taste thing of course, but I've always found that I enjoy filters more with the Comp before the filter. This way, the signal is balanced out a bit before it hits the filter, which does help tame the filter (because the signal is already better balanced before it gets there), but it also helps the filter feel a bit more musical. Comp after always had me feeling like I was fighting to get the filter to do what I want, because it's being restricted by the comp. YMMV of course!

I'll try it that way, it did seem to work well with the filter in the zoom.

Thanks for the advice!!!

 

[GMC]

You should seriously get SA to sponsor you a few $$.
Or at the very least they should give you some major props for promoting SA.

(Not a diss at all, I just think you’re a very devoted user of SA products)

Lol yes. I do get great service from SA and no I'm not sponsored by them. My first Source Audio pedal was the old Sound Blox 2 Dimension Reverb, some years back. It wasn't really what I wanted at the time and I didn't get on the Sound Blox controls / interface. In fact I was quite critical of the whole unit. The pedal that really got my interest in Source Audio was the Aftershock and it pretty much changed my mind about the direction that SA were going. I really liked the 2 channel routing options, the stacking options of 2 dirt models and the ability to switch between 6 pre-sets. It was also the first digital dirt pedal that I've used that sounded impressively analogue. I found that I could get a brighter top end to my grit, which is great to put through other effects like modulation, than I could easily find with my huge collection of analogue dirt pedals. For me, the whole midi experience / integration came a bit later. I liked the Manta a lot, but I didn't like the sound blox 2 interface. The Spectrum really is an upgraded Manta in a One Series box. Since then, Sa have been knocking pedals out of the park. The C4, Spectrum, the Ultrawave and the EQ2 are prime examples of literally being best of breed. So my love for Source Audio stems purely from the best of breed pedals they offer.
I have a similar love for my EHX Hog2 and my Eventide H9's, again both are best of breeds in my opinion. I used to have a Strymon Mobius for my modulation but I never quite felt that it was a best of breed pedal, though excellent and certainly top tier. I'm currently using a Source Audio Lunar and Eventide H9 for my modulation needs and the Lunar is excellent and again top tier gear. It's a lot smaller, lighter and simpler pedal to control. It's easier to midi-fy (is that even a word?) and a lot easier to power. However, it's not the last word in modulation like the Spectrum is to filters.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

Lol yes. I do get great service from SA and no I'm not sponsored by them. My first Source Audio pedal was the old Sound Blox 2 Dimension Reverb, some years back. It wasn't really what I wanted at the time and I didn't get on the Sound Blox controls / interface. In fact I was quite critical of the whole unit. The pedal that really got my interest in Source Audio was the Aftershock and it pretty much changed my mind about the direction that SA were going. I really liked the 2 channel routing options, the stacking options of 2 dirt models and the ability to switch between 6 pre-sets. It was also the first digital dirt pedal that I've used that sounded impressively analogue. I found that I could get a brighter top end to my grit, which is great to put through other effects like modulation, than I could easily find with my huge collection of analogue dirt pedals. For me, the whole midi experience / integration came a bit later. I liked the Manta a lot, but I didn't like the sound blox 2 interface. The Spectrum really is an upgraded Manta in a One Series box. Since then, Sa have been knocking pedals out of the park. The C4, Spectrum, the Ultrawave and the EQ2 are prime examples of literally being best of breed. So my love for Source Audio stems purely from the best of breed pedals they offer.
I have a similar love for my EHX Hog2 and my Eventide H9's, again both are best of breeds in my opinion. I used to have a Strymon Mobius for my modulation but I never quite felt that it was a best of breed pedal, though excellent and certainly top tier. I'm currently using a Source Audio Lunar and Eventide H9 for my modulation needs and the Lunar is excellent and again top tier gear. It's a lot smaller, lighter and simpler pedal to control. It's easier to midi-fy (is that even a word?) and a lot easier to power. However, it's not the last word in modulation like the Spectrum is to filters.

Do you know if the aftershock is line level compatible??
It is stereo right??

 

[rsmith601]

Do you know if the aftershock is line level compatible??
It is stereo right??

Yes, and yes.

 

[Beeflin]

It's true that the Spectrum has good sound quality, 6 presets and a useful 8 controls (each of the 4 knobs has an alt). But do remember you can't just turn fuzz or octave on and off - or edit their tone and level - on the fly, as you can with simpler pedals - you have to edit them into a preset using a phone or computer. There are no fuzz knobs and no octave knobs apart from the global Mix control.

 

[fivestringgecko]

It's true that the Spectrum has good sound quality, 6 presets and a useful 8 controls (each of the 4 knobs has an alt). But do remember you can't just turn fuzz or octave on and off - or edit their tone and level - on the fly, as you can with simpler pedals - you have to edit them into a preset using a phone or computer. There are no fuzz knobs and no octave knobs apart from the global Mix control.

That's the thing though... you can just turn them on/off, depending on how you build your preset. You're right that the Spectrum takes a little more work up front to get your preset built the way you want (or find one on Neuro and make some strategic edits), but then you're good to go. C1 and C2 knobs can be mapped to 44 different parameters, including several octave and dirt controls. Not just a global mix.

Not many other filters even have 6 presets, let alone 8 controls with 2 that are programmable.

(and for anyone wondering, no... the Editor isn't nearly as overwhelming as it might initially appear! )

5sg.

 

[Stubbrnmule]

If you don't want to go the digital route, The Broughton Joshwah can fill the bill in terms of gain and volume.

https://www.broughtonaudio.com/product-page/joshwah

+1 on the Joshwah. I have also played around with a handful of different filters, and really like the Joshway over most of them. One of the cool things about it is the gain knob which allows you to adjust from no additional gain driving the filter, or add gain to get dirt. It's easy to set up for a given bass and plays well on the board with my other pedals.

I've toyed with jumping into the SA equipment more than once, and am certain I would be happy with the tones that I could get, but I am admittedly not really into computer or phone based interfaces for tweaking. It's not that I am unable to comprehend how to do it, but I find that I spend more time tweaking things than playing. It's just me- getting older and just at times want simplicity- actually most of the time frankly. That said, there are some cool features and things I would like, and still may, to explore.

Another filter pedal that I have enjoyed after spending some time with is the Funk Lite from SolidGold FX. I thought I might sell it after getting the JoshWah but they are different enough that I will hold onto it. EBS BasicIQ has served me well, and then there is the venerable BassBalls that I can't get rid of although I find it to be more limited in use than the others. One thing about filters for sure is that we all hear them differently regarding where they sound best and how they fit into a mix.

 

[AlvarHanso]

Worth reiterating that the Spectrum can absolutely 100% be a plug and play pedal with no need to use the editor via phone or computer. The C4 or Ultrawave? Absolutely not. But the Spectrum with "just" the 6 presets (with the use of the Alt button on the back) available to you, you have a range of funk machines that get you a Mu-Tron or Meatball right out of the box. And you have 4 knobs controlling 8 parameters (with the use of the Alt button): Input Level/Envelope Sensitivity, Modulation Depth/Wet/Dry Mix, Frequency Start/Resonance, Env Speed/Output Volume. I have found myself tweaking the Spectrum the very least of all the SA pedals I have. I haven't replaced the factory presets, but I did load some I had already downloaded for the C4. I did save a tweak to the Thrust preset, but kept the factory one. This pedal is seriously easy to use and seriously funky. I find it easier than the SA Bass Envelope Filter Pro, mainly because I used the backpage menu on that to tweak the presets quite a bit for a while, then would keep presets for years with no changes, then occasionally change one or two. But the bottom line is not to be scared of a Source Audio pedal because some of them do require more work (but the payoff is incredibly worth it as you get sounds you could only dream of, or ones you had yet to dream before SA allowed you to make it a reality), but the Spectrum is not difficult to use at all. The editor is easy to use, I just haven't needed it. I have about 50 C4 presets, with a lot of those env filter sounds, or synth + filter, so I also don't really need to tweak the Spectrum that in depth yet. Nice to know I can when the need arises, and that I can cook up some wicked sounds to complement the Ultrawave at the same time. And I get the hesitation, but this one is straight forward out of the box.

 

[J_Bass]

I use the Mooer Bass Sweeper.

Very cool pedal. Small and it's not expensive.

Basically a replica of Bass Balls, but with controls.

 

[fivestringgecko]

But the Spectrum with "just" the 6 presets (with the use of the Alt button on the back) available to you, you have a range of funk machines that get you a Mu-Tron or Meatball right out of the box.

This is probably the biggest point about the Spectrum... It's got 25 different filters in it, so you have a wide variety of sounds in one box. Filters like the MXR, Aguilar, 3Leaf, etc are all great filters, but they're all based on a single filter type. That's not a bad thing because they do their single filters very well. But the Spectrum allows for all sorts of filter types, along with both up and down filters. (audio samples below)

Basically a replica of Bass Balls, but with controls.

I've got a two Bassballs (Russian and a Nano), and read about the mods for the Nano Bassballs when I got it... I was always curious about having those controls, but never got around to modding before I got the Spectrum and created my own Bassballs patch based on the two Bassballs and an Ashdown Type 23. It's got controls for Drive level and Distortion Mix, but the Mooer's controls are interesting... I might try my Spectrum 'Balls patch with the equivalent Frequency and Q and switch the drive mix to an expression pedal. Hmmmm! Thanks for the post @J_Bass.

5sg.