A Different Pentatonic Scale

[IamGroot]

Most times, when someone says "Pentatonic", we think of the 5 note scale which contains the major & minor pentatonic modes

But in fact, there are several 5 note pentatonic scales which are not part of the "Major/Minor Pentatonic Scale Family"

Such as the Coltrane Pentatonic:

C D Eb G A

which is cool sounding and worthy of your attention

 

[Vinny_G]

Yes, pentatonic, from ancient Greek penta tonos, five tones (or notes). This designates a system in which the notes can be separated by different intervals, sometimes without any semitone (like the minor pentatonic, or blues scale), but are still five in number. If you change the tonic, you enter the world of modes and traditional ethnic music (Indian, Asian, etc.). Have a nice trip.

Pentatonic scale - Wikipedia

 

[Spin Doctor]

Most times, when someone says "Pentatonic", we think of the 5 note scale which contains the major & minor pentatonic modes

But in fact, there are several 5 note pentatonic scales which are not part of the "Major/Minor Pentatonic Scale Family"

Such as the Coltrane Pentatonic:

C D Eb G A

which is cool sounding and worthy of your attention

It's on my to-do list

 

[SteveCS]

Most times, when someone says "Pentatonic", we think of the 5 note scale which contains the major & minor pentatonic modes

But in fact, there are several 5 note pentatonic scales which are not part of the "Major/Minor Pentatonic Scale Family"

Such as the Coltrane Pentatonic:

C D Eb G A

which is cool sounding and worthy of your attention

This is an interesting combination of notes. It has within it a diminished triad (A-C-Eb), a ½-diminished chord (A-C-Eb-G) and a minor triad (C-Eb-G), but with that whole-tone/augmented (lydian-like) fragment in the middle (Eb-G-A) and only 2 perfect 4ths/5ths compared to 6 in the major scale and it's modes. I like the ambiguous and unresolving nature of the thing. And I like how melodies constructed from it want to escape through the octaves searching for a resolution rather than just keep 'calling home', wherever that might be.

@IamGroot - Good shout!

 

[Vinny_G]

I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood your post. I thought you had just discovered the pentatonic scales. Pentatonic scales are the oldest known and are found in all musical cultures. This one is definitely very nice.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This is an interesting combination of notes. It has within it a diminished triad (A-C-Eb), a ½-diminished chord (A-C-Eb-G) and a minor triad (C-Eb-G), but with that whole-tone/augmented (lydian-like) fragment in the middle (Eb-G-A) and only 2 perfect 4ths/5ths compared to 6 in the major scale and it's modes. I like the ambiguous and unresolving nature of the thing. And I like how melodies constructed from it want to escape through the octaves searching for a resolution rather than just keep 'calling home', wherever that might be.

@IamGroot - Good shout!

Here is a short article about those "altered pentatonics".

How to Use Altered Pentatonics - Learn Jazz Standards

Also, from here:

Altered Pentatonic Scales Pentatonics Jazz composition improvisation - Bruno Pelletier


LadyDpiano: Altered Pentatonics, Scales and Patterns

Lucas Pickford calls it "Cmaj pentatonic with b3"

Altered Pentatonic Scales

 

[CallMeAl]

This is an interesting combination of notes. It has within it a diminished triad (A-C-Eb), a ½-diminished chord (A-C-Eb-G) and a minor triad (C-Eb-G), but with that whole-tone/augmented (lydian-like) fragment in the middle (Eb-G-A) and only 2 perfect 4ths/5ths compared to 6 in the major scale and it's modes. I like the ambiguous and unresolving nature of the thing. And I like how melodies constructed from it want to escape through the octaves searching for a resolution rather than just keep 'calling home', wherever that might be.

@IamGroot - Good shout!

Yeah, when I saw it written, my first thought was Dorian. But playing it on the piano, it has a diminished and/or Lydian feel to it. Pretty cool, thanks Groot!

 

[IamGroot]

Here is a short article about those "altered pentatonics".

How to Use Altered Pentatonics - Learn Jazz Standards

View attachment 3625977 View attachment 3625978


Also, from here:

Altered Pentatonic Scales Pentatonics Jazz composition improvisation - Bruno Pelletier


LadyDpiano: Altered Pentatonics, Scales and Patterns

Lucas Pickford calls it "Cmaj pentatonic with b3"

Altered Pentatonic Scales

View attachment 3625987

Very helpful information. Thanks.

 

[IamGroot]

Two questions:

1) How can you tell immediately that the Coltrane Pentatonic is an altered pentatonic?

2) How many unique families of altered pentatonics are there? I dont have an answer but I have a guess at an Upper Bound.

 

[JimmyM]

Two questions:

1) How can you tell immediately that the Coltrane Pentatonic is an altered pentatonic?

2) How many unique families of altered pentatonics are there? I dont have an answer but I have a guess at an Upper Bound.

1. Minor 3rd.

2. How many mathematical combinations of 5 grouped notes out of 12 are there?

 

[HolmeBass]

I’ll have to check it out. Honestly my first thought was also Dorian pentatonic, but I am intrigued by Lydian sounds a lot, which a couple of folks have mentioned.

 

[SteveCS]

I’ll have to check it out. Honestly my first thought was also Dorian pentatonic, but I am intrigued by Lydian sounds a lot, which a couple of folks have mentioned.

D-Eb-G-A

 

[IamGroot]

1. Minor 3rd.

2. How many mathematical combinations of 5 grouped notes out of 12 are there?

Jimmy, thanks for tackling this.

Close on the minor third, but its the use of a semitone. The regular pentatonic only uses whole tones and 1 1/2 tone. This scale has a semitone . So it sticks.

On number of unique pentatonic fanilies, 5 [12] is 792 . Divide by 5 gives 158 families. But a lot of those families are duplicates and i cant think of a way to calculate the number of unique families yet. The reason i asked this question is that i am only aware of a few number of pentatonic systems and there should be more.

 

[IamGroot]

Jimmy, thanks for tackling this.

Close on the minor third, but its the use of a semitone. The regular pentatonic only uses whole tones and 1 1/2 tone. This scale has a semitone . So it sticks.

On number of unique pentatonic fanilies, 5 [12] is 792 . Divide by 5 gives 158 families. But a lot of those families are duplicates and i cant think of a way to calculate the number of unique families yet. The reason i asked this question is that i am only aware of a few number of pentatonic systems and there should be more.

Actually, i just figured out a brute force method to calculate the number of unique pentatonic families that i will program over the weekend .

 

[Vinny_G]

Close on the minor third, but its the use of a semitone. The regular pentatonic only uses whole tones and 1 1/2 tone. This scale has a semitone . So it sticks.

On number of unique pentatonic fanilies, 5 [12] is 792 . Divide by 5 gives 158 families. But a lot of those families are duplicates and i cant think of a way to calculate the number of unique families yet. The reason i asked this question is that i am only aware of a few number of pentatonic systems and there should be more.

What do you mean by regular pentatonic? Because there are many.
Pentatonic scale - Wikipedia

 

[IamGroot]

What do you mean by regular pentatonic? Because there are many.
Pentatonic scale - Wikipedia

There may be many, but most people only talk about the 5 modes of the major/minor pentatonic family. The wikipedia article you reference is only talking about ONE pentatonic scale family ( the "black keys") and its 5 modes.
The wiki article is confusing, btw.

It would have been less confusing if it went.
Minor Pentatonic... C Eb F G Bb
Major Pentatonic.... Eb F G Bb C
Etc.

The Coltrane pentatonic is interesting because it comes out of a different family.

 

[Evert]

Little bit OT : Bobby McFerrin makes an audience sing

 

[IamGroot]

Here is a short article about those "altered pentatonics".

How to Use Altered Pentatonics - Learn Jazz Standards

View attachment 3625977 View attachment 3625978


Also, from here:

Altered Pentatonic Scales Pentatonics Jazz composition improvisation - Bruno Pelletier


LadyDpiano: Altered Pentatonics, Scales and Patterns

Lucas Pickford calls it "Cmaj pentatonic with b3"

Altered Pentatonic Scales

View attachment 3625987

John Campbell also calls it the b3 pentatonic.

So there are major, b2,b3, and b6 major pentatonic systems. Learned something new.

 

[smeet]

That is a gorgeous sounding scale...

 

[IamGroot]

Gary Campbell points out the b3 and b6 pentatonics are in fact melodic minor scales with 2 notes pulled out.