A Different Pentatonic Scale

[Whousedtoplay]

What's an "altered pentatonic"

I prefer a modern term for it, "Genetically-modified Pentatonics".

 

[Whousedtoplay]

And it’s that lack of semitones in those two most popular forms that account for their popularity

... that lack of tritone?

 

[stringtapper]

... that lack of tritone?

In the case of the major anhemitonic pentatonic scale, yes the lack of the tritone and thus the "magnetic" features of the dominant function are a major part of that.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I posted a breakdown of scale types and distribution . I think I identified 14 or so heptonic families.

Have you checked the Japanese scales?

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[IamGroot]

Far more than are used. Nobody (to my knowledge) uses, for example, scales with the first 5 notes (chromatic), then jumping over the next 7, and restarting an octave up from where you started. When you start to put rules around what kinds of jumps are acceptable in your scale, the number of combinations that get used (compared with what's possible) plummets. Look at the spacing of steps in the normal (non - pentatonic) modes, and you realize it's either a half step or a full step between successive, notes, and you never have two half steps in a row.

All the talk about scales, modes, and Pentatonics makes me think of Taco bell. They probably have something like 12 total ingredients in their assembly line/kitchen, and can make a myriad of different food items from combinations and permutations - the creativity seems to be in the naming and marketing of the latest concoction (just like how the modes are named). After a while, though, you realize that it's the same 12 ingredients in different combinations, with a few left out.

A pentatonic taco is just a regular taco where you've left out the cheese and sour cream (At Taco Bell, they always leave in the cheap ingredients - fill you up for less money (which is pretty much their whole reason for existence)). Pentatonic burrito? Same principal.

You must understand that when you deal with mathematicians, deciding whether something is practical or not is not important. G.H. Hardy was exceedingly proud that none of his discoveries had any practical application.

And is number theory text book was unreadable. He seemed to enjoy torturing the reader.

 

[IamGroot]

What's an "altered pentatonic"? Isn't a pentatonic scale any collection of five notes?

Unless you specify otherwise, "Pentatonic" can be construed to refer specifically to the family of 5 modes that contains the Major/Minor Petnatonic Modes.

An "Altered Pentatonic" can be used to describe Major Pentatonic families with a b2,b3,or b6. These are offshoots of the Melodic Minor family (drop out two notes and voila', you are altered.) Maybe others.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This thread has attracted a few very theoretically-knowledgeable TB members.
Maybe, they could explain something to me?
We have the same notes, but the Pentatonic Mode names are different.


Pentatonic scale

 

[SteveCS]

There are "draw the outside box"(for lack of better terms) pentatonic versions of every diatonic mode. The last time I approached voicing/structuring that way was over a decade ago playing in a jazz band for soloing. This is simply Dorian's "outside box shape" without the 4 and one degree into Phrygian's "outside box shape"....maybe that's why its not a big deal to me <shrug>

I think it's difficult to justify any flavour of C Dorian, given the absence of the subtonic Bb. It's difficult to justify any flavour of Phrygian (D, presumably?) with the minor 3rd and tritone F-B missing. The closest fit to any major mode is A Locrian, which is hardly the modal poster child.
No doubt this group of notes could claim parentage in any number of places, some perhaps more questionable than others, but I also think it stands in it's own right as an interesting palette with which to work.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Isn't a pentatonic scale any collection of five notes?

Kind of, YES, but what if we call those "altered pentatonics" as

Modal families with 5 tones?

From here, just scroll down.
A study of musical scales by Ian Ring
(I've counted 155 members of "Modal families with 5 tones".

Starting with

 

[Rib 13]

I think it's difficult to justify any flavour of C Dorian, given the absence of the subtonic Bb. It's difficult to justify any flavour of Phrygian (D, presumably?) with the minor 3rd and tritone F-B missing. The closest fit to any major mode is A Locrian, which is hardly the modal poster child.
No doubt this group of notes could claim parentage in any number of places, some perhaps more questionable than others, but I also think it stands in it's own right as an interesting palette with which to work.

Even though I approach this as a Dorian pentatonic minus the 4, add 9, based on the OPs post and order, I guess what to call it (sure, it has to be based on tonic to really orient it correctly) isn't really my point here any way....I just don't see anything earth-shattering that I haven't utilized before or heard others do...so Im still missing whats so ispecial and unique about it....Phrasing of the notes and choices is, of course, crucial but that applies to anything I play, doesn't it?

I utilize polychords on both keyboards and Stick - Im almost sure you probably do as well (i.e. A Major triad on left hand + G Major Triad on right hand equals A Dom7 family of chords, etc) so I just naturally think this way and failing to see whats so mind-blowing about it

 

[SteveCS]

Even though I approach this as a Dorian pentatonic minus the 4, add 9, based on the OPs post and order, I guess what to call it (sure, it has to be based on tonic to really orient it correctly) isn't really my point here any way....I just don't see anything earth-shattering that I haven't utilized before or heard others do...so Im still missing whats so ispecial and unique about it....Phrasing of the notes and choices is, of course, crucial but that applies to anything I play, doesn't it?

I utilize polychords on both keyboards and Stick - Im almost sure you probably do as well (i.e. A Major triad on left hand + G Major Triad on right hand equals A Dom7 family of chords, etc) so I just naturally think this way and failing to see whats so mind-blowing about it

Maybe you're right and the novelty will wear off soon. What I'm finding interesting is that, putting harmony aside for a second, the more I mess with melodic ideas from this set of notes, the more the G note wants to establish itself as a Final. I guess that makes sense with the C and D in toe and my classical ear 'filter' on.

 

[SteveCS]

...
I utilize polychords on both keyboards and Stick - Im almost sure you probably do as well (i.e. A Major triad on left hand + G Major Triad on right hand equals A Dom7 family of chords, etc) so I just naturally think this way and failing to see whats so mind-blowing about it

So to the question of harmony, things quickly get tricky when limiting the harmony to the notes in the particular collection. If you pick a chord from the limited few available then try to apply the usual functional rules to it, in pretty much all cases you run into a dead end. There is no G7 chord to support Cm as tonic chord. There is no Bb for A° to lean on from a position of vii°.
If we try to assign G, C and D as tonic, subdominant and dominant respectively, both tonic and dominant chords have no 3rd, V cannot be V7, and IV is actually iv.
YMMV.

Just to add an edit before I get timed out. Of course the same is true for most of the common pentatonics, but since they don't contain the tritone the harmony is more, well, harmonious...

 

[cnltb]

It was the royal we..

TB or not TB; that is the question

Royalist or not, THAT is the question.

 

[Rib 13]

So to the question of harmony, things quickly get tricky when limiting the harmony to the notes in the particular collection. If you pick a chord from the limited few available then try to apply the usual functional rules to it, in pretty much all cases you run into a dead end. There is no G7 chord to support Cm as tonic chord. There is no Bb for A° to lean on from a position of vii°.
If we try to assign G, C and D as tonic, subdominant and dominant respectively, both tonic and dominant chords have no 3rd, V cannot be V7, and IV is actually iv.
YMMV.

Just to add an edit before I get timed out. Of course the same is true for most of the common pentatonics, but since they don't contain the tritone the harmony is more, well, harmonious...

The cool thing about starting my tapping journey on 4 string bass was learning how to utilize implied chords because of the limited amount of strings......you know, rt-dom7-b3 sans fifth for a m7 or, even wackier, rt, dom7, 8va of the fourth for a 11 chord, etc......in which they work in the context of the particular arrangement they are being applied but just randomness on their own...... getting way off topic here aren't I?

 

[IamGroot]

I was walking the Coltrane pentatonic in Am.... and wound up playing "Stairway to Heaven"

Am G#+ G F#m7b5 F etc. It could be a cool jazz tune to call at a jam.

 

[IamGroot]

The cool thing about starting my tapping journey on 4 string bass was learning how to utilize implied chords because of the limited amount of strings......you know, rt-dom7-b3 sans fifth for a m7 or, even wackier, rt, dom7, 8va of the fourth for a 11 chord, etc......in which they work in the context of the particular arrangement they are being applied but just randomness on their own...... getting way off topic here aren't I?

Bass players should look to sax players for ideas. You cant play chords on a sax ,but you can outline them without sounding formulaic. There is an exercise to play every note in a mode while avoiding straight scalar and arpeggio .

 

[SteveCS]

Bass players should look to sax players for ideas. You cant play chords on a sax ,but you can outline them without sounding formulaic. There is an exercise to play every note in a mode while avoiding straight scalar and arpeggio .

100% this. I found a whole bunch of graded sax and clarinet studies in a charity shop about 4 years ago. 6 books, each with 40 studies, at £0.50 each, but would have happily paid the cover price.

 

[Prodigus Filius]

The “Coltrane Pentatonic” is an example of a hemitonic pentatonic scale, as opposed to the two most common major and minor pentatonic scale forms, which are anhemitonic scales.

hemitonic = contains one or more semitones

anhemitonic = contains no semitones

And it’s that lack of semitones in those two most popular forms that account for their popularity, especially for use in improvisation. Having no semitones takes away the need to treat certain notes of the scale with more care than others. Everything just “sounds right” wherever you play the notes in those “normal” pentatonic scales.

I believe that out of all the possible combinations of 5 different notes chosen from chromatic scale, there are only 3 that will have no semitones ie they are anhemitonic.
The Major pentatonic 22323
The Whole tone pentatonic 22224
The Dominant pentatonic 22332

If you only stuck to the study of pentatonics and not much else in music theory you would have an inexhaustible supply of material to muck about with.
I've found this webpage interesting. The author states that if you impose a limit on interval being no greater than a a major 3rd than their are 155 pentatonic scales, which he groups into families. A study of musical scales by Ian Ring
155 scales with a 120 different ways of reordering the 5 notes in each scale gives a person plenty to do.
I didn't see what I suppose is the harmonic minor pentatonic scale for want of a better name mentioned in the thread. Distinct from the Coltrane pentatonic aka melodic minor pentatonic by having the lead tone.

Melodic Minor pentatonic in
C. CDEbGA (21423) Given that Dorian is to Melodic minor (dorian raised 7th) what Aeolian is to harmonic minor (aeolian raised 7th). The melodic minor pentatonic is called Dorian pentatonic or Kumoi, a Japanese pentatonic.

Harmonic Minor pentatonic in
C. CEbFGB
I like playing this to give that exotic vibe with the lead tone in it.

A handful of pentatonic scales based off four of the 5 notes of the major pentatonic. Each contain the tritone of the parent 7 note major scale, so in the context of the major or relative minor tonality they create tension. They can also and are used as scales in their own right around a tonal centre. E g 21414 in what ever minor key will sound very Japanese.

Using C major pent as an example
C
DEFAB 21423( Dorian/kumoi)
EFABD 14232 (Japanese Insen)
GABDF 22332 ( Dominant pentatonic)
ABCEF 21414 ( the so called Japanese mode)

 

[Prodigus Filius]

This chap gives 330 possible pentatonic scales, with leaps greater than a major 3rd allowed for the additional 175 scales that are excluded by limiting the largest leap to a major third.
The fretboard graphics are based on a 6 string guitar but the scale patterns are depicted as 1 octave covering the 3 lowest strings, so they are easily to follow on a standard tuned bass Pentatonic Scales 1-10 -

 

[mambo4]

That kind of "All 330 Pentatonic Scales for Guitar" (in a vacuum) approach is impractical imho
When is a "pentatonic scale" better thought of as a chromatic run?

Fun to experiment with? sure
Useable in a musical context? possibly
Useful for communicating with other musicians? not really