A Different Pentatonic Scale

[Spin Doctor]

Never heard of the "Coltrane pentatonic" by name
But listening to those examples, I hvae heard it before
Branfor Marsallis sprinkles that sound liberally over Sting's stuff.

You can be sure that Branford has absorbed and assimilated all things Coltrane...

 

[Rib 13]

its a Xm6add9 (Cm6add9 in the OP)....Im not sure why this is a big thing but, hey, if Coltraine digs it, who am I to question it?

 

[Spin Doctor]

Jerry Bergonzi has a great book on Pentatonic scales with some really great patterns in fourths very difficult to play on bass. It took me couple of months just on the first pattern in all keys on a 4 strings...

I've got a Bergonzi book and I'm not sure I'll live long enough to see it through. Dudes stuff is intense...

 

[kesslari]

Beautiful sound.
"As these are the 5 notes John Coltrane played, I'm going to call them "the John Coltrane Pentatonic", as it is my video." Awesomeness right there.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Beautiful sound.
"As these are the 5 notes John Coltrane played, I'm going to call them "the John Coltrane Pentatonic", as it is my video." Awesomeness right there.

I enjoyed it just for the presentation.

 

[Jim Carr]

Eliminating transpositions and rotations, there are 66 unique sets containing 5 pitch classes, including their inversions.

 

[Groove Master]

I've got a Bergonzi book and I'm not sure I'll live long enough to see it through. Dudes stuff is intense...

Yes, not made for bass players that is for sure LOL

 

[micguy]

2. How many mathematical combinations of 5 grouped notes out of 12 are there?

Far more than are used. Nobody (to my knowledge) uses, for example, scales with the first 5 notes (chromatic), then jumping over the next 7, and restarting an octave up from where you started. When you start to put rules around what kinds of jumps are acceptable in your scale, the number of combinations that get used (compared with what's possible) plummets. Look at the spacing of steps in the normal (non - pentatonic) modes, and you realize it's either a half step or a full step between successive, notes, and you never have two half steps in a row.

All the talk about scales, modes, and Pentatonics makes me think of Taco bell. They probably have something like 12 total ingredients in their assembly line/kitchen, and can make a myriad of different food items from combinations and permutations - the creativity seems to be in the naming and marketing of the latest concoction (just like how the modes are named). After a while, though, you realize that it's the same 12 ingredients in different combinations, with a few left out.

A pentatonic taco is just a regular taco where you've left out the cheese and sour cream (At Taco Bell, they always leave in the cheap ingredients - fill you up for less money (which is pretty much their whole reason for existence)). Pentatonic burrito? Same principal.

 

[SteveCS]

its a Xm6add9 (Cm6add9 in the OP)....Im not sure why this is a big thing but, hey, if Coltraine digs it, who am I to question it?

Maybe true, but for me, the 'big thing' is not so much about one of the possible chord names, but about the distinct character of the melodies arising from that particular set of notes and the challenge of harmonizing those melodies without introducing additional notes. Throw in an F and a B or Bb into the harmony pool and it becomes a whole load easier but then we're back on the well-trodden paths.
YMMV.

 

[Rib 13]

Maybe true, but for me, the 'big thing' is not so much about one of the possible chord names, but about the distinct character of the melodies arising from that particular set of notes and the challenge of harmonizing those melodies without introducing additional notes. Throw in an F and a B or Bb into the harmony pool and it becomes a whole load easier but then we're back on the well-trodden paths.
YMMV.

There are "draw the outside box"(for lack of better terms) pentatonic versions of every diatonic mode. The last time I approached voicing/structuring that way was over a decade ago playing in a jazz band for soloing. This is simply Dorian's "outside box shape" without the 4 and one degree into Phrygian's "outside box shape"....maybe that's why its not a big deal to me <shrug>

 

[cnltb]

Most times, when someone says "Pentatonic", we think of the 5 note scale which contains the major & minor pentatonic modes

But in fact, there are several 5 note pentatonic scales which are not part of the "Major/Minor Pentatonic Scale Family"

Such as the Coltrane Pentatonic:

C D Eb G A

which is cool sounding and worthy of your attention

We?!.
I'd replace that with 'I'.

 

[onda'bass]

Coltrane pentatonic is know as the kumoi via the grimore

 

[Spin Doctor]

Coltrane pentatonic is know as the kumoi via the grimore

Yeah, but would anyone have paid it any attention without Coltrane? There are hundreds of scales in there, that are lost to obscurity. I think it's rightfully called the "John Coltrane Pentatonic".

Like the Slominsky book (which is probably where he got that pentatonic anyway). It has literally hundreds of scales and their interpretations. When Coltrane told people he was working from it, in his Giant Steps phase, everyone scoured the whole thing trying to find what he used.

Surprise! Everything he used to develop Giant Steps was on the first page. He didn't even bother with the rest all that much as far as I know. So I say all this to say you can make Giant strides (Giant Steps?) with only a little information. You just find one thing you love and really take it apart. You don't need to know a hundred scales. You need to know one, really really well.

I was doing a lot of work with the Hirijoshi Pentatonic at one point which is related to the kumoi. They are both derived from Japanese scales.

 

[stringtapper]

Eliminating transpositions and rotations, there are 66 unique sets containing 5 pitch classes, including their inversions.

Yep, no reason to reinvent the wheel (unless you're wanting to calculate them all as an academic exercise of course).

The Forte list of set-classes gives them all:

http://www.musictheory21.com/documents/list-of-set-classes.pdf

EDIT: Jim, it should be 76, right? 38 pentachords in all without counting inversions?

 

[IamGroot]

Yep, no reason to reinvent the wheel (unless you're wanting to calculate them all as an academic exercise of course).

The Forte list of set-classes gives them all:

http://www.musictheory21.com/documents/list-of-set-classes.pdf

EDIT: Jim, it should be 76, right? 38 pentachords in all without counting inversions?

Yeah, but would anyone have paid it any attention without Coltrane? There are hundreds of scales in there, that are lost to obscurity. I think it's rightfully called the "John Coltrane Pentatonic".

Like the Slominsky book (which is probably where he got that pentatonic anyway). It has literally hundreds of scales and their interpretations. When Coltrane told people he was working from it, in his Giant Steps phase, everyone scoured the whole thing trying to find what he used.

Surprise! Everything he used to develop Giant Steps was on the first page. He didn't even bother with the rest all that much as far as I know. So I say all this to say you can make Giant strides (Giant Steps?) with only a little information. You just find one thing you love and really take it apart. You don't need to know a hundred scales. You need to know one, really really well.

I was doing a lot of work with the Hirijoshi Pentatonic at one point which is related to the kumoi. They are both derived from Japanese scales.

Miles Davis was questioning the increasing length of John Coltrane solos.
Coltrane answered "I don't know how to stop.
Miles replied "Try taking the f<><>ing horn out of your mouth".

Coltrane (and Jimi Hendrix) practiced incessantly. I heard Trane carried Slonimsky around and practiced the whole thing for hours every day.

 

[Jim Carr]

Yep, no reason to reinvent the wheel (unless you're wanting to calculate them all as an academic exercise of course).

The Forte list of set-classes gives them all:

http://www.musictheory21.com/documents/list-of-set-classes.pdf

EDIT: Jim, it should be 76, right? 38 pentachords in all without counting inversions?

I count self-invertible sets only once. 76 includes all inversions, including 10 self-invertible sets and their inversions. 66 has self-inverted sets but not their inversions.

 

[stringtapper]

I count self-invertible sets only once. 76 includes all inversions, including 10 self-invertible sets and their inversions. 66 has self-inverted sets but not their inversions.

Ok that's right, and what I thought might be going on.

I know you studied with George Perle, so I should have known better than to question!

 

[Jim Carr]

Ok that's right, and what I thought might be going on.

I know you studied with George Perle, so I should have known better than to question!

I thought I might be wrong as I was going on memory, which is usually good, but i've just checked. 66 is right.

George used a different approach to conceiving collections (invervals instead of pitch classes).
The list Perle provides has 10 self-invertible sets and 28 pairs of prime and inversion. 10 + 2 * 28 = 10 + 56 = 66.

George hated teaching, but he taught me more than any other teacher. Weird, huh?

 

[IamGroot]

We?!.
I'd replace that with 'I'.

It was the royal we..

TB or not TB; that is the question

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Yep minor 6 pentatonic.

Here is A minor pentatonic.

We are lowering the 5th (or raising the 4th) in order to acquire C - D - Eb - G - A or
A - C - D - Eb - G