Double Bass A few questions

[bopeuph]

I am doing the Camelot touring production when it comes to Melbourne in February. I am told that the request is for an amplified bass, lots of arco. I've always noticed different problems when dealing with arco compared to pizz. Any suggestions on that? I'm also told that I will be mic'ed into the PA. I was wondering on that too, is that a good idea, or should I do some DI connection? I just put in an order for fdeck's pre, so I was thinking that I could do the chain in this order: pickup, pre, DI, amp. Or, would it be better to mic the bass? Where should the mic be placed? What about a DI/mic mix into the house? I just don't want to walk into the gig, and hand the sound guy over all the decision making.

Any suggestions?

Nick

 

[Marc Piane]

Mic is best. Especially for arco. If you use an amp at all it will just be for personal monitoring.

 

[tornadobass]

At least with a EUB, the volume/tone differences between pizz and arco through a pickup and amp are quite noticeable.

I've been able to turn down the volume knob on my BugBass for arco passages, but I think a pedal with EQ and volume would be helpful as presets.

The SansAmp Bass Driver DI pedal would be an example, but there are lots of other possibilities.

The difference between pizz and arco might be less with a regular double bass, but check that out carefully.

 

[bolo]

In addition to what the other guys said above, here’s an edited version of a post I thought might relate. I hope larry will concur this still makes sense in your situation:

Try the [ brand x ] mic again but don't connect it to the bass. Just get a small stand and point it straight at the bass, probably around the bridge.

...

If the mic is in front pointed at the bass (a great spot is pointed right at the bridge, maybe an inch or two in front), it's going to sound like your bass. If it's boomy, raise the mic higher or back away. The only concern is if the instruments around you are too loud and bury you in your own mic. There will always be some bleed, but it should be manageable by setting up with a little distance between you and the louder instruments (perhaps the soundman thinks there should be no bleed? It's impossible not to have some - he's got to deal with it). Don't mic the F-hole of course.

...

Point the mic at the bass, but not too close. This really should work.

And the whole thread in its entirety here if you’re interested. Just seems like what larry and fingers said would be easier than the whole pickup + mic blending plus using your own amp as a monitor thing, although you could take it that far I reckon.

 

[bolo]

Maybe you could lean in to the mic more too when doing the pizz stuff, to try and compensate for the volume diff v. arco.

Or step back when you bow.

Something like that anyway, maybe.

 

[tornadobass]

My experience with this was in a setting where going through the house wasn't an option, because the rest of the orchestra played unmic'd in a lively auditorium.

If the orchestra is mic'd then you'd be able to balance the mic'd double bass with the other instruments.

 

[ToneRanger]

I just don't want to walk into the gig, and hand the sound guy over all the decision making.

Don't write off the sound guy/girl too soon - if they've got a gig with a professional touring show they probably know what they're doing and have access to a quality mic collection.
I'd suggest using mic for PA (under the control of the sound person) and use pickup for your own monitoring. Get to know the sound person, talk about what you're trying to achieve with your sound and they'll probably enjoy working with you to get a good sound.

 

[bolo]

Don't write off the sound guy/girl too soon - if they've got a gig with a professional touring show they probably know what they're doing and have access to a quality mic collection.
I'd suggest using mic for PA (under the control of the sound person) and use pickup for your own monitoring. Get to know the sound person, talk about what you're trying to achieve with your sound and they'll probably enjoy working with you to get a good sound.

I was gonna try and say something positive like this too, but you said it all.

I also like to mark an X on the floor w/ duct tape for where my endpin goes once the mic is all set, esp. if it's multiple shows in the same place (assuming they don't move the mic stand on ya ...).

 

[bopeuph]

I disappear from the board from a while and I miss all these GREAT suggestions! I have been shedding with my amp for the show to see how I like it set with a bow, and I'm not really happy with anything my Polytone can dish out for arco bass. I do believe the amp is for personal monitoring, since they said both miked and amped.

I remember reading something in The Evolving Bassist, where Reid says the best sounding mic options are one by the bridge, and one by the fingerboard. Any suggestions?

Oh, and thanks for the idea for the sound guys. I don't want to sound like an ass either, it's just that sometimes I get guys whose idea of the sound of an instrument, whether it be bass, trombone, or whatever, are not how I want myself to sound. I'm guessing that he's not part of the production, but the house sound engineer. I dated a sound engineer that had no idea about balance and timbre of instruments, and she always tried to start arguments about how she's a better musician than I am, and in the eight months we dated, I never saw her pick up an instrument. After sitting with her at many shows and watching how she works with other sound people, I just got a bad impression of them, and how they think they are more talented than the talent that's on the stage.

Nick

 

[bopeuph]

Heh. Most likely true, but when I dated one and saw the other ones she was working with, it really opened my eyes to some of them. Another soundguy (she ended up marrying that one) put on his MySpace page he believes that the sound people deserve the performer's check and the performer should get the soundguy's lesser check. Turns out quite a bit of sound guys I've met think the same way. They complain that they're there before and after the performance, so they do more work. It seems to me almost everyone, including musicians, forget that their paycheck is paying for the hours of individual practice on top of the performance.

I will give this guy a chance though. Like has been said, it's a professional production, at a huge performance hall that's been there for 25 years. I'll probably ditch the Polytone and ask for a house monitor instead if it sounds real good.

Nick

 

[Marc Piane]

Another soundguy (she ended up marrying that one) put on his MySpace page he believes that the sound people deserve the performer's check and the performer should get the soundguy's lesser check.

Really. I've been on a few gigs where the soundguy DID make more than the individual performers.

 

[bopeuph]

It's because they demand the money where some musicians are just happy to have the gig (not that I'm saying that's your situation, but that's my experience). People also tend to forget that you can have a concert/performance without a sound tech, but you can't without the musicians. Some of the better gigs I've been on are the ones where we run our own sound.

Nick

 

[Marc Piane]

That's the way MOST of the rock clubs here in Chicago work. Soundman gets $100 and the band(s) split a % of door or something like that. No room for negotiation. Fortunately I don't do the rock club thing anymore.

 

[bopeuph]

Hehe, rock. Most of the pop music seems to get stiffed like that. Sometimes I think it's the genre that has the largest number of musicians lacking talent that can still get work. Then you hear some of the jazz/funk groups. I think it has a lot to do with it not usually being a steady career; it's their night hobby, and they have a day job. A good deal of us that went to school got a lot of info on the gig itself (but only if you asked one of the professors in their off time, as most schools don't have a music business class). I remember someone telling me the fact that they don't respect the money I make at gigs, since I should love what I'm doing and do it for free. Hey, a musician's gotta eat, too, ya know? Sometimes more than the average joe.

Nick

 

[Mark Perna]

Another soundguy (she ended up marrying that one) put on his MySpace page he believes that the sound people deserve the performer's check and the performer should get the soundguy's lesser check.

My response: wait until just before the start of the show, hand them your instrument and tell 'em to go for it. Of course, if by some miracle, they can really play, you're going to look like a bloody idiot. More than likely, the color will drain from their face and they'll stammer.

I've run into some great sound guys that really know what they're doing and I've run into some that are, for lack of a better word, "owners of sound equipment." You take your chances every time you let the sound guy have control of your sound.

The bigger venues usually have good sound people. I played the Newport Folk Festival about 12 years ago and the sound on stage was MAGNIFICIENT. It was like taking a bath in perfect sound. Everything, even the mistakes, sounded glorious. The week before that I played a local fair on a flatbed truck with a makeshift roof on it and the sound guy apparently felt that every bass should sound like John Paul Jones' of Led Zepplin. In cases like that, if I can, I crank my amp up as much as possible without offending my band mates. If the stage volume is high enough, they turn you down in their system and you can wrestle some control back.

mark

mark

 

[bopeuph]

Well, it turned out they just wanted to plug me into the house through my pickup, they only had enough mics for the other instruments. The sound guys did, however, tell me that I should have my own mic for things like this, and gave me a list of mics they like. One of them (a red haired dude that went by the name of Sharpie, I thought that was pretty funny) showed me how to dial a good bass sound on my Polytone. I'm actually not all TOO picky with my sound, since the first problem I have was being able to hear myself. That wasn't a problem at the gig, because when I thought I was too loud, the director wanted me twice that volume.

I put my volume pedal in, because I didn't want my bowing to be too loud. That was interesting, because it's the first time I've actually used it on a gig with my upright. And it was very comfortable to sit at the stool, one foot on my footstool and the other one on the volume pedal. It was actually very natural to use it this way to help with dynamics, rather than standing with it at a slab gig.

There was a few issues I personally had with the sound. It was with my bow. There was a lot of "twang" in my sound, ESPECIALLY with my open strings. It's not that bad unplugged, though I could use some more practice with a bow. However, I was wondering if that would be due to the bass being plugged in, or if it's the fact that I'm using the D'Addario Hybrid strings. I've heard from classical bassists that the company used to make good strings, but that they aren't that great any more for professional playing. Then again, McBride uses them.

Oh, and Fdeck, I used your HPF at the gig, and the sound guys loved it. They said it made a world of difference plugged into the house compared to the guys that don't have one.

This is how the chain went:

My Kay with the Hybrid strings
Fishman BP-100
HPF-Pre
The house DI box
Boss FV-50h
Polytone Mini Brute III

Nick

 

[tornadobass]

I use light hybrids on my BugBass and have similar challenges with bowing either becoming too loud or a bit bright. The G string has some twang, at least on that bass.

Good idea on the volume pedal. I'm always tweaking the volume knob on my Bug to mange between arco & pizz and it's hard to hit the right mark or find a big enough break to reach the knob in a pit orchestra setting.

Any down sides to the volume pedal?

 

[bopeuph]

Any down sides to the volume pedal?

None that I could find. It will take some more practice for it to be thoughtless, but I got the hang of it enough for no one but me to notice in during the sound check. It was surprisingly very comfortable. It's actually something Rufus Reid uses and suggests. He doesn't use it to do all of his dynamics, but I've found there's a point where you just can't play quiet enough while plugged in, and this helps you do it.

I remember when I got this pedal about two years ago, it didn't work like I had thought it would, but I'm not sure what was the cause at the time, and the HPF-Pre might have fixed it. I got it because my upright is naturally louder than either of my electrics, even my active one. I wanted to be able to make quick changes, and be able to leave both plugged in. So, my volume pedal went from my db to a Midiman mixer, where my electric was plugged into as well. My bass lost ALL of the body when I did that. So, the pedal has mostly been collecting dust. I use it at the occasional gig when someone says I'm too loud (even if I can't hear myself), and I can turn it down immediately, and do the "creep."

Nick

 

[bopeuph]

By the way, this isn't some subtle twang that I'm talking about for my bass, it's a very audible, loud, TWANG! that seems to almost overload the amp (I might be exaggerating a little there). When I was tuning, I was cringing, because the sound was that bad about 80% of the time on all the strings.

Nick

 

[tornadobass]

I remember when I got this pedal about two years ago, it didn't work like I had thought it would, but I'm not sure what was the cause at the time, and the HPF-Pre might have fixed it.

The problem could be that the pedal is not high impedance enough, although your model is spec'd as high impedance. I'm guessing it's the difference between 25k (low) and 500k (high).

I like the minimum volume feature, so you can shoot right to the lower arco level.

Perhaps I'll pick one up for my next pit gig.