Double Bass A foggy day - from Real Book

[sean_on_bass]

I think OP just wanted to understand the music theory behind the harmony. There’s nothing wrong with asking about theory.

Definitely not, but it can come off as there being some sort of prescription or justification when there isn't one. The "why" here is simply that it sounds cool. Anything beyond that is kind of useless information IMO. But i've never been one to try to find a theoretical concept behind music. it simply is what it is.

 

[Don Kasper]

I think the OP is another inadvertent victim of the widely held notion that the "Chord Tones" are only the 4 notes described by the chord name : "Eb7" = "Eb,G,Bb,Db" which is woefully incomplete. The FULL set of "Chord Tones" for Eb7 is : Eb,G,Bb,Db,F,A,C, which then removes the OP's puzzlement at the presence of an "A" in an Eb7 chord. It is wise (and necessary) to always know & be able to HEAR the 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 of any spelled chord.
(If there are alterations occurring other than the named chord (Eb7,b9 for example), the chord name needs to reflect that important Harmonic and Melodic information.) Instead of "reading" Theory Books, or "talking" Theory, get to a piano, (or to a jazz Pianist for a lesson), and start HEARING what is being written about.
Also, too - this is where "Key Signatures" display their obsolescence and inadequacy in 20th and 21st Century musics, as they often cause a lot of head (and ear) scratching when reading chord names and hearing (Jazz) Harmony. (i.e. - see "Blues in F" with a Key Sig of "Bb". Sheesh...)
IMFO, of course.
I'll step down from my overturned trashcan now.
Thanks for LISTENING.

 

[Wasnex]

UNSUB

 

[bassically_eli]

The FULL set of "Chord Tones" for Eb7 is : Eb,G,Bb,Db,F,A,C,

I think you mean Eb7 #11, or Eb7 in this particular context. Not trying to be pedantic, but since this is essentially a jazz theory thread, it seems worth mentioning. Eb7 without some other clues/context or extensions would imply the key of Ab.

 

[bassically_eli]

I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but i think people should be encouraged to ask this kind of question. I don’t think there is anything immediately obvious about a backdoor dominant. Of course it’s going to look confusing to a lot of people (people who likely went through band and orchestra programs and were taught about “wrong” notes and “right” notes).

Sure, it sounds good, but that’s all the more reason to ask about the theory behind it imo.

 

[Don Kasper]

I think you mean Eb7 #11, or Eb7 in this particular context. Not trying to be pedantic, but since this is essentially a jazz theory thread, it seems worth mentioning. Eb7 without some other clues/context or extensions would imply the key of Ab.

No. I mean what I wrote. When I see "Eb7", no matter what follows, that "Eb7..."will welcome the #11 (A).
Are you saying that if is heading towards Abmaj, you would include/consider an Ab as a "chord tone"? I would not.
If you want an Ab as a good fit in the "Eb7..." chord, you should/would name it "Eb7 sus", letting us know that you want the "sus" quality in the Harmony.
This is how I hear/play/teach, and write when I transcribe a tune for others to read and perform.
Not looking for a BassBrawl, just expressing my approach...which I think added some clarity to the OP's concern.
Thanks, eli...I appreciate your interest and civility.

 

[bassically_eli]

No. I mean what I wrote. When I see "Eb7", no matter what follows, that "Eb7..."will welcome the #11 (A).
Are you saying that if is heading towards Abmaj, you would include/consider an Ab as a "chord tone"? I would not.
If you want an Ab as a good fit in the "Eb7..." chord, you should/would name it "Eb7 sus", letting us know that you want the "sus" quality in the Harmony.
This is how I hear/play/teach, and write when I transcribe a tune for others to read and perform.
Not looking for a BassBrawl, just expressing my approach...which I think added some clarity to the OP's concern.
Thanks, eli...I appreciate your interest and civility.

That makes sense. As a bass player, I don’t really think about the extensions much tbh— not as extensions anyway. I think about arpeggios, scales, and shell voicings when playing bass. And granted, I think of the 4th as an avoid note or passing tone, yet in a solo I might play a #4 simply because I know it sounds interesting in dominant chord—so your explanation makes sense.

How do you address this in terms of modes when teaching? Mixolydian vs Lydian dominant? Or perhaps one can throw out the modes at this point since the chord extensions tell us everything we need to know.

 

[bass player 53]

In researching the fate of the original
manuscript for this Gershwin tune, I discovered that the general public
(us) will likely not see it anytime soon.
There is a NY Times article from 1972 that states that there was a law suit filed by the Library of Congress to add it to its collection, but they have been unsuccessful. Unfortunately too, the manuscript is not in the IMSLP, which
provides free public domain scores.

AI states that it exists, but I was unable
to successfully follow up on its
suggestions.

It would be a cruel irony if, in 74 years,
someone presents it on PBS’s
Antique Roadshow visits Seattle;
“My Great Great Uncle Ira used this
to line his large parakeet cage.”

 

[Don Kasper]

How do you address this in terms of modes when teaching?

I think it is useful and important to hear/think both Horizontally (modes) and Vertically (chords with extensions) so that you're getting as much of the full sonic picture of the music as possible.
The "extensions" are useful in filling in the notes in between the alleged "4 chord tones", IMO.
Thanks for your interest, eli.

 

[Bruce Calin]

A discussion like this reminds me how different players deal with chord situations where there can be a variety of options. Some have very strict ideas about what is "correct"( "I saw it in the RB" or some such).Others have come up with something they've heard somewhere or they've figured out on their own. When there are different accepted versions, I used to ask, if it was a player new to me, "What change do you use at point X ?" Now I don't bother. I listen and react. It's more interesting that way IMO. There can be any number of theoretical explanations, but I don't care in a performance context.

 

[Don Kasper]

Yeah - the Holy Grail is to be able to understand and hear both the Expected and the UnExpected in real Time.
Thx.

 

[turf3]

In researching the fate of the original
manuscript for this Gershwin tune, I discovered that the general public
(us) will likely not see it anytime soon.
There is a NY Times article from 1972 that states that there was a law suit filed by the Library of Congress to add it to its collection, but they have been unsuccessful. Unfortunately too, the manuscript is not in the IMSLP, which
provides free public domain scores.

AI states that it exists, but I was unable
to successfully follow up on its
suggestions.

It would be a cruel irony if, in 74 years,
someone presents it on PBS’s
Antique Roadshow visits Seattle;
“My Great Great Uncle Ira used this
to line his large parakeet cage.”

It also may very well be that George didn't use current academically accepted chord designations. You know, his business was to crank out show tunes and notate them so someone else could orchestrate them for the actual show book; then another someone else took the show book (and maybe George's manuscript) and created a piano reduction for sale to the general public. He wasn't much concerned with whether someone nearly 100 years later would find an A natural to be incongruous over an Eb7 marking. If the melody sounded OK and the left hand sounded OK, he was on to the next measure and onto the next tune for whatever show he was late in delivering the music for.

 

[bass player 53]

It also may very well be that George didn't use current academically accepted chord designations. You know, his business was to crank out show tunes and notate them so someone else could orchestrate them for the actual show book; then another someone else took the show book (and maybe George's manuscript) and created a piano reduction for sale to the general public. He wasn't much concerned with whether someone nearly 100 years later would find an A natural to be incongruous over an Eb7 marking. If the melody sounded OK and the left hand sounded OK, he was on to the next measure and onto the next tune for whatever show he was late in delivering the music for.

In looking at some of Gershwin’s original manuscripts, it appears that he composed in the traditional orchestral
or pianistic notation, without using chord symbol notation. I think his
sonic intention would have been
clearly and exactly notated. To me,
it’s fine to interpret his works in any way one sees fit, as long as authorship
is acknowledged.

 

[turf3]

So probably the chord symbols on Foggy Day were first applied by a copyist working it up for mass market sheet music. Which would also mean they'd be looking for guitar and ukulele chords that one could reasonably expect the living room player to be able to play. If the chord in question was really an Eb minor 7th with augmented 9th and 14th and a drop Bb with microtones on 4 and 6 but only on alternate Thursdays, the copyist probably pulled out his uke and said "Eb 7! Close enough! Sounds OK! Normal people know this chord! Eb7 it is!"

A lot of the time when you see two notes in the left hand and one in the right, it's kind of a guessing game which chord applies anyway.

 

[bassically_eli]

Yes, microtones on 4 and 6–that’s what i wanted to play.

 

[turf3]

As the leader of the Greek band said,

"Look, kid, just give me a simple back beat on 3 and 5!"