Double Bass A foggy day - from Real Book

[AndyMopley]

Working thru this tune at present.
Can someone enlighten me as to the use of Eb7 when the melody lands on an A natural note? (Please note snip is in bass cleft).
I am assuming Eb7 functions as a tritone sub for A7 chord (which is then a fit for A note).

Thanks

 

[Wasnex]

This is a bit over my head, but I think it's something along these lines.

A7 definitely does not go there. So no, I don't think it's a tritone sub. AFAIK, Eb7 is sort of a sub for Bb-6 which is heard earlier in the song. Eb7 and Bb-6 share three chord tones and both are diatonic to Bb melodic minor.

At this part of the song, the chords are C-7, F7, Bb6; so the song seems clearly in Bb Major (ii V7 I). AFAIK, the following chord Eb7 is a modal interchange. Basically Eb7 is the borrowed IV7 from parallel Bb melodic minor.

The diatonic mode to play over the Eb7 is Lydian Dominant. Basically Lydian mode with a minor 7.

 

[AndyMopley]

Thanks! So that I am clear then, the A note is the #4 in the lydian scale of Eb7?

 

[bassically_eli]

The Eb7 is called a back door dominant. It functions similarly to the V chord and leads back to the I-chord (F6).

 

[bass player 53]

You will find a variety of harmonic
concepts for this song.
I have provided one that is older
and closer to the composition date,
and one from Winton Marsalis
(one sharp, G).

https://www.sheetmusicsinger.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/A-Foggy-Day-1937.pdf

https://wyntonmarsalis.org/pdf/WM_Standards_preview.pdf

 

[bass player 53]

From an improved version of the
Real Book, there is this clear
harmonic movement:

 

[bass player 53]

To the OP:

From my experience, I think it is
productive to hear and be able
to play the melody.
Apart from this, I think it is
productive to hear and identify
the movement of the harmony.

In your provided example, and mine,
the harmony is indicating a
1-6-2-5 type of movement.

I have a very good friend, who
is a retired music theory professor
from a major university.
I used to ask him music theory
questions about how to name
melody/chord relationships, mostly,
how to name chords relative to the
melody. You would be very surprised
at how formal theorists name things.
My take-home impression was that
yes, notation is important, but
more importantly, recognizing how the
harmony moves is more useful,
especially for a bass player.

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks! So that I am clear then, the A note is the #4 in the Lydian scale of Eb7?

Yes, Lydian mode has an augmented 4th.

Eb Lydian Dominant: Eb,F,G,A,Bb,C,Db--this is the 4th mode of Bb melodic minor. Same exact tones as Bb melodic minor.

 

[Carl Hillman]

View attachment 7411404


This is a bit over my head, but I think it's something along these lines.

A7 definitely does not go there. So no, I don't think it's a tritone sub. AFAIK, Eb7 is sort of a sub for Bb-6 which is heard earlier in the song. Eb7 and Bb-6 share three chord tones and both are diatonic to Bb melodic minor.

At this part of the song, the chords are C-7, F7, Bb6; so the song seems clearly in Bb Major (ii V7 I). AFAIK, the following chord Eb7 is a modal interchange. Basically Eb7 is the borrowed IV7 from parallel Bb melodic minor.

The diatonic mode to play over the Eb7 is Lydian Dominant. Basically Lydian mode with a minor 7.

It's a IV7#11 chord in the key of Bb...which is a common way to think of those 4 bars that start on Cm7.

This is a pretty common progression in jazz tunes. (bars 3 - 8 in Cherokee for example)

 

[oren]

As others have stated above, a pretty common back door kind of change, which probably should be noted as a 7#11 chord, as it is here (from The Standards Real Book). It would be interesting to see what the original published sheet music from the 30s looked like.

 

[dfp]

Yes back door flat 7 dominant, which is essentially an elaboration on a minor iv sonority, and functionally points back to tonic, here F major. In this case, with the melody note A, it could have originally been conceived as a minor iv, maj7 chord, without ever going to flat VII, but if you insist on putting E flat in the bass, then you’re reinforcing the idea of making a quasi ii-V progression out of the minor iv, flat VII, aka back door ii-V.

 

[Neon Scribe]

As others have stated above, a pretty common back door kind of change, which probably should be noted as a 7#11 chord, as it is here (from The Standards Real Book). It would be interesting to see what the original published sheet music from the 30s looked like.

In the PVG sheet that was linked earlier in the thread, the chord starts on the beat 4 of the preceding measure (m.27). It's a Db augmented triad, Db F A, with a G in the bass. Db#5/G. It is immediately preceded by a Bbmaj9 (or is it Dm7/Bb), and the next phrase starts with Dm/F on beat 3 of m.28 and a Gm7b5 (or is it Bbm6/G) on beat 4, then F/A on beat 1 of m.29. Feel free to explain that sequence.

 

[lurk]

The most common screw up in this tune that I've experienced over decades of playing it is those last six bars with the dominant pedal and the extended ending. In my experience the bassist making it very simple and clear there and solidly pointing to the top is greatly appreciated.

 

[Don Kasper]

Eb7 when the melody lands on an A natural note?

So the "Playing" takeaway here (aside from the Theory Classroom and Analytical Theoretical perspectives that have been offered here), is that ANY Dominant 7 Chord (other that a X7sus type Dominant 7 chord ) is VERY welcoming of the #11 in both the Harmony and Melody (bassline included.)
Try it at a piano and see/hear if for yourself. (Or, ask your Pianist/Guitarist friends to demonstrate it for you.)
IMFO, of course.

 

[oren]

In that sheet music it has a G in the piano left hand, with Db F A on top, which could still reasonably be interpreted as a rootless voicing of Eb9#11, though I grant you that may be a bit of a stretch.

 

[Don Kasper]

In that sheet music

That sheet music from 1937(?) is riddled with Harmonic Nonsense - i.e. - "Bb6/G" LMAO.
Better to LISTEN to "jazz" recordings (later in the 20th century!) to hear idiomatic harmonizations.
IMFO, of course.
Thanks.

 

[logdrum]

The form of this son is A1-B-A2-C. This chord progression is the beginning of the C part .Cm7 F then whole step down to BbM7 to Eb7 prepares you for the chords to the intro chord progression (which is part of C) . You need to really get the melody in your head. The A is major 7th of BbM7 and that note is tied before the Eb7. You can play Bm7b5 instead of Eb7 but it's not the right chord for the setup to the next 4 bars.

Thinking in scales will trip you up.

Here it is written for tenor sax Bb ( so transpose everything 1 whole step down to concert (the chord in question is written as F7- I know more confusion but think of it as skill building). I cued it for you, so that you can hear how the melody works with this supposedly wrong chord



I am 50% a horn player - so I play Eb and Bb instrument also and have to transpose on the fly many times . I think the same guy has a concert key or accompaniment only video, if I find one, I'll post an update.

 

[crd]

I don't understand the use of these types of questions. It's like asking why the sky is blue.

Hum the melody and play the root on the bass till you know the shape of the tune. Write down a couple versions then look at a chart if you need to.

 

[bassically_eli]

I don't understand the use of these types of questions. It's like asking why the sky is blue.

Hum the melody and play the root on the bass till you know the shape of the tune. Write down a couple versions then look at a chart if you need to.

I think OP just wanted to understand the music theory behind the harmony. There’s nothing wrong with asking about theory.

 

[crd]

I think OP just wanted to understand the music theory behind the harmony. There’s nothing wrong with asking about theory.

Curiosity is a good thing, but it just seems like the wrong type of question when learning a tune IMO.