A little different spin on finding a "Plug & Play" live rig

[Brad Johnson]

To me, uncolored and transparent sound great when I'm practicing at home, or recording. In a live setting it doesn't always work.

With the right gear and the right player, it can work amazingly well. At least in my experience. I use the same settings at home as on a gig but I also know many people who are mentally locked into the home settings and have difficulty playing live with them. The caveat is that I don't use my live settings BECAUSE of my home settings.

Years ago, I found the best way to judge an amp was to go out and hear cats playing them in a club with little to no PA support. The gear, to my ear, that always stands out is the GK stuff. Sure, it colors the tone a bit..... Bob Gallien himself says he tries to voice the heads so they stand out like a kick drum in the mix. But it is not so colored that you can't tell the difference between a J or P or MM etc, etc.

I determine how well an amp works by what I hear onstage. Even with no PA support I can still typically tell how it sits in the mix.

From a listeners perspective, I just haven't heard anything that sounds better than the GK gear in a live setting.

Ljazz

I like GK gear but I have definitely heard gear that sounds better to me live. OMV.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I agree with Kjung's comment about all rigs coloring your sound. Since there is no such thing as totally transparent rig, the trick is finding gear that works for you and compliments your playing. If you really want a set up as transparent as possible, then you may want to look into a studio pre amp, something like a Summit TD-100 and combine that with a separate power amp. Once again, every speaker is going to color your sound, but maybe look into the Acme cabs or the Accugroove Tri115.
Personaly, I think the concept of transparent is over rated. The other week I saw this Steely Dan tribute band play and the bassist was using a $300 Ibanez bass with an Eden WT550 and and Eden 410XLT cabinet. Certainly not a transparent rig, yet this dude's sound was simply incredible. One of the best I have ever heard. Point is, just find a rig that works for you and don't worry about the labels !

How would I sound on that gig, using my basses and rig? Heck, how would that bassist sound with my basses and rig?

The concept isn't overrated, the confusion over preferences just gets more and more baffling.


NO ONE is saying that EVERYONE should run ANY particular rig. Use what works for YOU... unless that concept too is overrated.

 

[Rhythm5]

NO ONE is saying that EVERYONE should run ANY particular rig. Use what works for YOU... unless that concept too is overrated.

Isn't that exactly what I was saying?
"Sir, what we have here is a failure to communicate."

 

[alexclaber]

A Carvin B1500 into an Acme Low-B4 would be an amazingly transparent and loud rig for the money.

Alex

P.S. Input may never quite equal output but the Acme cabs are a league closer to achieving this than everything else I've heard.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Isn't that exactly what I was saying?
"Sir, what we have here is a failure to communicate."

Yes indeed, there is a failure.

"Personaly, I think the concept of transparent is over rated".

So you think transparent, which in this context is plug 'n play, is overrated.

Why is it "overrated" if it's what works for it's proponents? Why do you have a personal opinion of about what others use if you're saying people should use what they want to use? That's contradictory.

 

[Visirale]

IMO, transparent doesn't translate well to plug and play. I find a lot of the hifi super transparent gear to be brittle sounding. A bass is just metal strings on a wood body with magnetic pickups and no room to let the sound blossom acoustically... it's not inherently a warm sounding instrument... with flats it can be a little warmer than rounds.

IMO a good plug and play amp colors your sound just enough to fill up the sonic holes the instrument has on its own. I'm not a fan of removing natural frequencies, so amps that have a scooped sound I would pass on.

I'll probably be the 20th person in this thread to reccomend the Markbass LMII. It's loud enough that anything where you're playing without PA support that the LMII can't cover, should have PA support. You're really risking your hearing if you're playing at those volumes constantly. My LMII rarely gets turned up past 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock on gain and similar levels on the master.

I don't think cabs are as important as the head. How they are sealed will influence the sound a bit, but the speakers themselves won't have as big of a part on your sound as the head will. The main thing is to get speaker sizes that will add to your sound. A 15 will add some flop, 12s give you a lot of bass without the flop, 10s are punchy, and I wouldn't play anything less than a 10.

When I designed my current rig I had many of the same requirements that you do for my sound... I feel like I have accomplished what I was going for. Regardless of the words we use to describe tone, it sounds good to me.

 

[alexclaber]

IMO, transparent doesn't translate well to plug and play. I find a lot of the hifi super transparent gear to be brittle sounding. A bass is just metal strings on a wood body with magnetic pickups and no room to let the sound blossom acoustically... it's not inherently a warm sounding instrument... with flats it can be a little warmer than rounds.

This depends entirely on how your bass sounds. A bass with a really great acoustic tone and high quality pickups will sound fantastic through a transparent rig. Unfortunately many basses are simply not that great sounding or their players don't know how to get that sound out of them. My basses are and I do.

Alex

 

[Visirale]

This depends entirely on how your bass sounds. A bass with a really great acoustic tone and high quality pickups will sound fantastic through a transparent rig. Unfortunately many basses are simply not that great sounding or their players don't know how to get that sound out of them. My basses are and I do.

Alex

That's your opinion. I would never use ANY bass through an avalon into a poweramp. That's too transparent... My opinion is that the only basses I'd play straight DI to poweramp would be a rob allen or another high end semi hollow where the acoustic sound has some space to bloom.

 

[rpsands]

I predict you keep the GK 1001 RB II and the Avatar cabs

 

[peterpalmieri]

I don't think cabs are as important as the head. How they are sealed will influence the sound a bit, but the speakers themselves won't have as big of a part on your sound as the head will. The main thing is to get speaker sizes that will add to your sound. A 15 will add some flop, 12s give you a lot of bass without the flop, 10s are punchy, and I wouldn't play anything less than a 10.

See, I feel the exact opposite. I think the speaker cabinet influences the sound more then the head.

Take for example:

The same head through a pair of Bag End 15's vs. a 410 cabinet. You will hear a big difference in tone.

On the other hand use a 800RB or LMII through a 410 cabinet you may hear a difference, but not huge....

At least that's my opinion....

 

[seanm]

I don't think cabs are as important as the head. How they are sealed will influence the sound a bit, but the speakers themselves won't have as big of a part on your sound as the head will. The main thing is to get speaker sizes that will add to your sound. A 15 will add some flop, 12s give you a lot of bass without the flop, 10s are punchy, and I wouldn't play anything less than a 10.

I have to strongly disagree with this. Unless the head is very very coloured, the cab is going to make a much bigger difference.

All of my rigs sound very different through the EA CXL-112 compared to the EA wizzy. They are both 1x12 cabs, but with completely different sound.

Just having a tweeter, assuming it is enabled, makes a big difference in the sound.

 

[Visirale]

See, I feel the exact opposite. I think the speaker cabinet influences the sound more then the head.

Take for example:

The same head through a pair of Bag End 15's vs. a 410 cabinet. You will hear a big difference in tone.

On the other hand use a 800RB or LMII through a 410 cabinet you may hear a difference, but not huge....

At least that's my opinion....

I think speaker sizes matter, but brands not so much. The material yes... and speaker sensitivity. That has a lot to do with volume. I can hear a difference between hartke's aluminum cones and other paper cones... but I think the head has a lot more potential to shape your sound than the speakers.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I've read and heard people saying they can hear a difference in paper and aluminum cones but I've yet to see that demonstrated. Indeed, they do "see" a difference but really, what does an aluminum cone "sound" like? Aluminumy? Who would bet money they could pick out a Hartke Kickback in a combo shootout blindfolded?

The speaker CAN affect tone as much as the amp. And vice versa. So can the instrument. So can the player. With cabs, design, materials and construction are what matter. It's the sum, not a specific part or speaker size. Fifteens don't necessarily add flop, that's just what people who either haven't experienced a good 15 or repeat the stereotypes seem to think. For example, Bag End 15's aren't floppy. Most people have never played a Euphonic Audio VL208 so they have no idea what's possible with less than 10" speakers. Electric basses are acoustic instruments, that's why you can hear them even when they're unplugged. And to ward off anyone who wants to bring up that old saw about them not being used live that way, that's an issue of volume. You also don't see non-miced upright basses up against loud amplification

Everything involved in the process of producing sound can have an effect and theres no way to generally say which does more than the other... it depends.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I think speaker sizes matter, but brands not so much. The material yes... and speaker sensitivity. That has a lot to do with volume. I can hear a difference between hartke's aluminum cones and other paper cones... but I think the head has a lot more potential to shape your sound than the speakers.

Only because it has adjustable tone controls. That doesn't mean the cab can't have a major affect on your sound...

Check out an Acme 410, SWR Goliath, Eden D410XLT, Bag End Q10x, Schroeder 410 and an Epifani 410. Heck, the different Epifani 410 models don't even sound identical.


And that's just some tens.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I think speaker sizes matter, but brands not so much. The material yes... and speaker sensitivity. That has a lot to do with volume. I can hear a difference between hartke's aluminum cones and other paper cones... but I think the head has a lot more potential to shape your sound than the speakers.

Yes brand not so much but cabinet volume and dimensions are different depending on the brand. They are more similar then different except when you compare a totally different design like a wizzy cabinet.

To address Brad's point on aluminum, I have not played many that I liked and I do think they have there own sound, although like anything else that tone can be tweeked based on crossover points and cabinet deisgn. I would think I couldn't tell the difference between the two unless they were in the exact same enclosure with the same crossover to the tweeter.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yes brand not so much but cabinet volume and dimensions are different depending on the brand. They are more similar then different except when you compare a totally different design like a wizzy cabinet.

To address Brad's point on aluminum, I have not played many that I liked and I do think they have there own sound, although like anything else that tone can be tweeked based on crossover points and cabinet deisgn. I would think I couldn't tell the difference between the two unless they were in the exact same enclosure with the same crossover to the tweeter.

I had the original Guild/Hartke cabs (1-15/4-10) way back when and I never got that comment when I used them on gigs with my Amplified Music Products BH-420 head. Many commented on how they didn't sound like they expected.

Do Phil Jones cabs also sound like aluminum?

 

[Porksicle]

For the record, I never used the word "transparent"

In fact, I'd actually describe what I'm looking for as simply an amp that is... I dunno, dry, , clear, loud, and wide?

There we go... from now on, let's focus on potential rigs that are dry, clear, loud, and wide.


Nothing that is colored, hot, or focused need apply!

 

[peterpalmieri]

I had the original Guild/Hartke cabs (1-15/4-10) way back when and I never got that comment when I used them on gigs with my Amplified Music Products BH-420 head. Many commented on how they didn't sound like they expected.

Do Phil Jones cabs also sound like aluminum?

The Hartke cabinets that I have played have a more pronounced top end agressive played finger style and more brittle almost like allot of tweeter when slapping IMO. Not a bad sound but not my cup of tea. I've heard guys that sound killer with those cabs and if you love them more power to you. My only experience with PJB is on the small neo combo amp so I can't speak to that...

 

[Visirale]

Only because it has adjustable tone controls. That doesn't mean the cab can't have a major affect on your sound...

Check out an Acme 410, SWR Goliath, Eden D410XLT, Bag End Q10x, Schroeder 410 and an Epifani 410. Heck, the different Epifani 410 models don't even sound identical.


And that's just some tens.

Maybe cabs are your thing. They're not mine. I've owned combos (fender bassman 60, hartke kickback 12) and quite a few cabs (ampeg 810e, mesa boogie diesel 410, mesa boogie powerhouse 212, SWR 210s and 115s). I could get a good usable sound out of all of them that for the most part sounded the same. My tone was never too different out of any of them.

However, I've owned 3 different heads. An ampeg svt350h, mesa boogie bass 400, and my markbass LMII I use currently. Those affected my sound IMMENSELY more than the cabs ever did. That's where I'm speaking from... my own personal experience. The ampeg was muddy (given it was a horrible SS ampeg). The mesa was glassy with some nice break up, and the LMII is a good mixture of them both... For my future recording setup, I'm going to have an all tube head (probably an svt and a mesa) and a good solid state head. I'm not too concerned about cabs... for me, if it works, it works.

And I could definitely spot an aluminum cone speaker if it was in the room with me. I spent 2 years using the kickback combo in jazz band, and it has a lot of "zing" to it. Certain frequencies shine through a lot easier with the aluminum rather than paper.

But we can just agree to disagree .

 

[Eminor3rd]

Not to worry, I've already spoken with the GC fellow I'm working with - I've been a very good customer for him through the years, so he's more than happy to help me out.

(actually, he's the one who gave me the idea)

I take my statement back.

To the others, cabinet brand ABSOLUTELY makes a difference, because regardless of materials, they all voice their cabinets differently.